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Jonas
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Please, every "Diehard" HL members in here, tell me what your username over there is, you should be posting a lot as you know so much and have 45% of the respect over there, as it seems.

De'vo? Ah, I get it now...

Seriously, XCM and flourishes is the exact same thing, flourishes belong to magic.
But all they do is cutting, fanning, throwing, springing and all with the deck, nothing magic related, so that's why they wanted a new name for it all, that's where XCM got started, but now suddenly they try to steal springs, fans, aerials, armspreads and whatever from magic and not let magicians do them, and claim they always belonged to "XCM", which was created lesser than a year ago by Lars, or whatever his name is.

Its claimed that it has existed for hundreds of years but nah, I doubt that the name "Xtreme card manipulation" existed for hundreds of years, seriously...

It has not been around for longer than magic, like what also has been claimed, LOL.

Playing cards were created after Cups and balls were first done...
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
jessicashurtz
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Hey 4jacks, don't get me wrong here, I'm really appreciative of the fact that you're taking the time to argue, but it would be a lot better if you just stopped. it's not like either one of you is going to make some suddenly enlightening post that will make the other stop. I'm feeling sympathetic for yahu here, because as much as I didn't want to post on this thread, I ended up so annoyed that I did anyway, so I can see why he's still arguing, and I'm getting annoyed at reading this continued argument about something that will NEVER be resolved anyway. so ... just drop it Smile

back on topic:

joeytsai, there is a link here:
<obsolete link removed by staff>

but I'm not sure if it's the whole thing or not (whole thing is over 2 hours). if that's not the whole broadcast and you really want the whole thing, I have a copy of it if you want (just PM me)
-j
Jonas
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My posting in this thread will stop now,
finally someone from HL writes posts here that isn't bashing anyone,
good work Yahu, I appreciate that.

And I hope the arguing stops now. ^^

He finally put out a description
of it all that I agree with.
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
yahu
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See? I keep telling everyone that we really don't disagree on anything, we just don't understand each other. When flame and bashing is eliminated, and reasonable discourse takes place, we can all learn something and realize that our differences are okay, as long as we accept them as differences, not atrocities. Also, I'd like to publicy thank Harwin and Jessica for their kind words. And 4jacks, that is why De'vo sent me, because he had faith in me to turn this situation around. I think I've done a pretty good job, with the help of the magic community. I think we're all grown a lot these pasts few days, and I think now we can all move on with our lives, and if any further points of contention arise, we will be able to resolve them with meaningfull conversation, not by posting rude comments.
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
jlotto
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Ok people.
Whats up.
This is Jlotto from the HL forums.
Yahu, you've done a **** job on handling the situation. Im glad this topic hasn't blown up in our faces like SO many times before. I commend you on that.

My point in coming over here, is to hopefully, define xcm, as a complete, and seperate artform from flourishes. You all seem to know the difference between magic and xcm, but not flourishes.

Hmmmm.

To put it simply first:

Flourishes are card manipulations performed within a magic act or effect to ENHANCE THE MAGIC. Repeat after me: TO ENHANCE THE MAGIC.
Such as, fanning the cards so a spectator can pick a card, or doing one handed cuts for visual effect. It doesn't matter if you cut the deck all day, as the one poster said. Youre not doing xcm.

that's like saying if you can stand on your head all day, that youre a breakdancer.

don't you see the difference?

Now, XCM is:

The Xtreme Manipualtion of Cards, in a complete presentation and act, ALL BY ITSELF. No magic is there. None whatsoever. It is a routine composed of All card manipulations, such as:

Water/wind/fire/earth/light Elementals, displays, multi-person displays, one handed cuts, two handed cuts, springs, armspreads, spins, deck spins, Deck throws, aerial cuts/moves, deck put-downs, deck-pick ups, table displays, shuffles, different limb card manipualtion, which is known as stump manipulation, audience participation routines, XCM riffs, one handed fans, regular fans, giant fans, single card manipulation, balance manipulation, box manipulation, blindfolded manipulation, card juggling(hey, it IS a branch of XCM), color manipulation(using different colored backs, and blurring them together to create another color), deck protector manipulation, extreme card dealing, and....the list goes on.

As you can see, XCM has the right to have its on category, and thanks to De'vo, he has probably single-handedly created and proved the term to be the Real Deal.

No, De' did not send me on a mission to shut down you guys. I came on my own free will, so don't give me any of that crap.

The Bucks are flourishes/magicians/kutkiddies.

Why?:

They do magic(duh).
They do simple card manipulations WITH their magic(FLOURISHES)

(say it with me:TO ENHANCE THE MAGIC!!!!)

And last, but not least, they do mostly, if not all of their card manips, in the form of cuts. I have nothing against kutkiddies to some degree.

Its just, they (like some people on this board), don't see the clear and thick line between flourishes and XCM, especially Penuinmagic making proposterous claims as to Tudor being the father of XCM.

I have a good two-syllable term for what that is.

Look at my descriptions of flourishes and XCM. Please see the difference between the two.

Thanks for your time people.
Peace.
yahu
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When I saw that jlotto posted in this thread, I freaked out. For those of you that don't know, he's the SH street guy, and I thought that was going to be much worse than it turned out. I'm going to make a few comments not about what he said, (I agree with him) but how he said it. It seems to me that the word kutkiddies is used as a slur, and thus, the use of this word is inappropriate. Dan and Dave Buck call themselves flourishers, and I support their decision to refer to themselves in that way, and agree with them in that regard. Also, as I have said before, I rather enjoy watching their work, it's very good magic.

Next, while I appreciate your use of my literary tool jlotto, please refrain from foul language. I've worked too hard man...
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
jlotto
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My bad Yahu, I don't wanna destroy what youve created; an oasis of peacefulness surrounded by gritted teeth and barbed wire.

Enough with the metaphors, but seriously, I don't want to start a fight. Im just expressing my opinion through the way I talk normally. But, in order to keep the peace, like a real pro, I'm going to refrain from foul language from now on, in this forum community.

Jus' tryin to get my word across.
Jonas
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Well, I wouldnt say that only cuts and fans exist in "flourishes", basically anything that can be added to magic is.

Flipback is. (Flipback vanish)

Armspreads are. (All card stabs I have seen.)

Aerials are. (Gregory wilson for an example, in card stunts.)

Cobra cut. (I remember some HL person writing he knew a way to force/control a card using it, both those belong to magic I suppose.)

One card flourishes. (I think it is in card college, a bunch of flashy one card turnovers there, and if that's not one card flourishes I dunno. ^^)

Springs. (Tudor published a color change using one in Gen. X

Card shuffles. (Jerry Andrus has quite some.)

And most of those people havent established themselves as XCM artists. Smile

that's a few I think of right now anyway, I'm sure a lot more exist.
All I am saying is that only cuts and fans is not all "flourishes" is about,
everything can have a use in magic, to spice up magic routines, just like yourself
have written, and like you wrote, it becomes flourishes, when blended with magic, right?

I'd call Flipback vanish a flourish then, but well, that's just my opinion. Smile



Just my 2 cents, or whichever currency you use where you all are.
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
jlotto
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I don't disagree with you. Ofcourse they're flourishes if used in magic. When used with only other XM's, are they XCM's.

Actually, I really don't know at this point. You brought up a good point.

Its weird. I mean, De'vo would roll in his metaphorical grave, if you called the cobra cut a flourish, which......you just did.

Hmmmmmmmm.

I don't know.haha.

I guess its fine that you use these and know that youre doing flourishes and don't call it xcm. that's what this arguement/discussion is all about.

Ill get back to you on this one.
Good point bro.
Jonas
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Yeah jlotto, hehe, ive never called the stuff I do Xtreme card manipulation, I get your point now, I think Xtreme Card Manipulation sounds kinda silly, but its not what I do so I shouldnt care much, ill keep calling what I do flourishes. ^^

But the cobra cut issue, it is off course in its own, if not combined with magic, XCM, but as it has magicial uses, as it apparently does, I guess it can be a flourish in a situation as well, how much mad ever would get about it. Smile

Thanks for the serious non-bashing posts, they look a lot better than the other, bashing ones, they lead nowhere. Smile
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
yahu
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That is indeed a good point. In my opinion, a cobra cut done in the context of a magic routine would be a flourish. I think De'vo would rather have you call such a presentation a flourish than XCM, but I really can't speak for him on that issue, I haven't discussed it with him. I'll ask him, and hopefully get back to you later tonight.
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
Fiddling-Steve
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I just call it all manipulation. You can add manipulation to a magic routine, you can do a whole show out of manipulation.
Stick to the classics,

Stephen
yahu
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That's fine as far as I'm conserned. Manipulation is a much more general term, that to me focuses more on the moves than the presentation. To call these moves simply "manipulations" is a good idea. The different presentation require different names, Flourishes in the context of magic, XCM in the context of, well, XCM. lol
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
CardConjurer
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I agree completely with J & yahu. You have expressed exactly how I feel about this matter. Good work
I like cards.
yahu
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Okay, I have consulted with De'vo, and he has told me that he designed the Cobra Cut as an XCM move, and therefore it can never become a flourish. He also suggests that there is really no circumstance in which the Cobra Cut can be used in a magic act.

IF YOU DISAGREE, PLEASE DO NOT BEGIN TO BASH AND FLAME AGAIN!!! I must stress that. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to appropriatly debate this issue further, is by creating a video actually proving De'vo wrong, and letting him see it hoping it will change his mind (it probably won't, but if you insist this, it's worth a try, and is clearly better than mor bashing).
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
Jonas
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Nah, I wont try proving it, it was just a point I wanted thru.

I use riffle force and such every time I force a card, a cobra cut as a force would look a little... VERY un-natural. Smile

Not something you see every day. ^^
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
yahu
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That's De'vo's point. The Cobra Cut just wouldn't fit in a magic act, and that's why it is at a most basic level a move that is exlusively XCM.
I am away and will be so until late July. I will have a chance to read the forums, but I will be pressed for time, and unable to read every thread. If you feel a thread requires my attention, please PM me with a link. Thanks, and have a great summer. :
MnemonicaRedux
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I like ice cream. And soda. They're both nice treats, but essentially they're different tasting things altogether.

Put them together, and you get one hell of a float Smile

-Kev
kxxcheng
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Ring ring ring ring ring ring ring.... BANANAPHONE!!!
Karen
Jonas
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I hope for another radio show in the future,
they planned to have one and that would be great. ^^
http://www.youtube.com/jonashaglund < Card flourishes and some other stuff.
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