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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Ethical Magic (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Soupdragon
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It must so tempting to newcomers like me to grab a bargain off ebay or the such... 1000s of tricks in ebooks for £1.99 or whatever. I instinctively don't want to go down that road, nor does my teenage son who wants to "earn" his way up. But what argueaments can I put forward to others I meet who do succumb? I'm sure there's lots!
Kent Wong
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Don't bother. In my experience, you cannot preach ethics and morality to others. The only thing you can do is lead by example and hope others follow. You will occasionally be asked why you don't take the easy way out - but from your post, it already sounds like you have an answer.

By saying the above, however, I am not trying to take sides on the ebay issue. I have purchased items on ebay in the past myself. Sometimes there are great deals to be had. At other times, however, you don't really save that much, especially after you have paid for shipping, handling, money orders, and duty.

I used to hate the resale of magic tricks of any degree. However,I read a post a while back where someone made a very valid point. He suggested that, by selling older tricks that weren't being used by the original purchaser, there were true benefits to the Craft.

For instance, it is more likely that the new purchaser will perform the trick than the old seller. Every time a trick is performed, it is an advertisement for that trick and it could lead to an increase in sales. Conversely, if the trick hadn't been sold, it would likely have just sat on the seller's shelf and continued to collect dust. That wouldn't have contributed anything to the craft.

Also, by selling off old, unused tricks, the seller frees up space in his magic room and increases the cash available for him to go out and purchase other tricks. This supports the ongoing creative process.

I know everyone thinks differently but I can only govern myself by my on sense of right and wrong.

Kent.
"Believing is Seeing"
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magiccarpet
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Why don't you just buy the standard used magic books and effects?
A lot of people put on Ebay their used items that they do not use anymore.
I have a lot of books I won a high bid on Ebay. You can save a lot if it is the right item.
Foucault
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New Jersey, USA
424 Posts

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There are great bargains to be had on eBay. You have to be a sensible buyer, though. Comparison shop because you can encounter overinflated prices.

The CDs containing secrets of many tricks are often a complete rip-off. I received one of these as a "special bonus" with another item I purchased, and not only was it poor quality, but many of the explanations were completely wrong. Re-read that last part again, and you have all the justfication in the world for rejecting those rip-offs!
rikbrooks
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Olive Branch, Mississippi
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Be careful about rejecting out of hand those that sound 'too good to be true'. They may not be. There are thousands of tricks that are legitimately in the public domain. If someone wanted to put them together and sell them as an ebook then he could do so quite ethically. There is a long history of this. Encyclopedia of Sponge Ball Magic has tricks that reach back into antiquity, tricks from Mr. Garcia himself, and others by other magicians.

The tricks described in Mr. Tarbell's book weren't all from the author.

OK, so you put together a large collection of tricks, print them up, take the time to take photographs, learn how to create an e-book. Get everything looking JUST as you want it. How much does it cost to deliver?

Nothing.

So all of your expense if up front, after that, no expense at all. That sounds somewhat tempting.

I recently bought a DVD from ebay that seemed to fit your bill. They actually sent me a disk. I watched it. I learned not a single thing new. Each were old, old tricks - but they were well put together and well presented. So I didn't feel bad about the purchase. I'll wind up giving it to my niece some day, or a member of the local SYM.


What happens if you DO get a rip off? What would you do if you ordered a recently published book and got a copy that had been photocopied? Throw it away and pay attention to the name of the individual that sold it to you. Then never buy from them again.
evolve629
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A stack of
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You can get Card College 1, Tarbell, and Modern Coin Magic, etc., from http://www.lybrary.com/ They are all ebooks with color illurations for download. I hope that folks at lybrary.com have permissions from the magic authors and creators to put their work on the internet.
One hundred percent of the shots you don't take don't go in - Wayne Gretzky
My favorite part is putting the gaffs in the spectators hands...it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside! - Bob Kohler
Loual4
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Montreal, Canada
670 Posts

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Quote:
On 2005-09-12 17:07, evolve629 wrote:
...I hope that folks at lybrary.com have permissions from the magic authors and creators to put their work on the internet.


As far as I know, they have all the necessary permissions. And boy! Their EBooks are worth it. They are very well put together, have a nice search engine... Good stuff!

Smile

Louis Jutras
Roldero
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Central Florida
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I have seen the ebooks on e-bay but haven't bought any since they seem to be, as rikbrooks described, just collections of tricks you can find for free elsewhere. Besides, with RRTCM and Mark Wilson's CCiM, I have enough reading to last me the next few years.

But you have me wondering, what exactly is unethical about purchasing these ebooks?

Mike
Loual4
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Montreal, Canada
670 Posts

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Quote:
On 2005-09-14 19:16, Roldero wrote:
...
But you have me wondering, what exactly is unethical about purchasing these ebooks?

Mike


For the majority of EBooks that I have seen, nothing unethical about it. They have been either compiled from material in the public domain, or published with permission from author and/or copyright owner. Therefore, there is nothing unethical about buying or selling them.

On the other hand, if the book has been riped off, i.e. published without proper permission, then this is unethical. The author is not getting any royalties that are due to him, and that is simply not right. Simply put, it is stealing. If you are buying a book which has been published in such a way, and you are fully aware that is is stolen material, then there is an other ethics problem: Is it OK to get things that have been ripped off of others, knowing that you are encouraging this type of behavior by giving money (a reward..) to the person who is stealing? Personnaly, I think it is wrong.

Have a nice day!

Louis Jutras
Roldero
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OK, I'm with you on this one Louis.

I agree knowingly buying stolen or ripped-off goods is wrong.

However, Soupdragon didn't make this distinction and seemed to classify all ebooks in the same group, which had me puzzled.

Mike
Sean Comer
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EBooks? I just can't get into an electronic book. For me, an e-book convenient as it may be isn't the same as a hard back. I like to be able to get my hands around a book. Perhaps I am just getting up there.
abc
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The main benefit in my opinion of an e-book is that it can link you to certain webpages while you are reading it. Therefor you can download a book and then view a demo at another website or be linked to a site where you can purchase material online. I am not only refering to magic but to almost any subject. Now having a book in the book case is nice but for the cost and convenience offered by e-books the pro's and cons are the same in my opinion.
As for ethics whether you are buying a book or anything that is stolen online or not is unethical and should not be done or encouraged. Ther is still a paradigm of thought that views the internet as evil. Don't buy online people can steal your credit card number. Don't buy at auctions they are all rips or stolen items etc etc. This is simply not the truth and there are as many cons in the "physical world" as on the internet and the possibility of buying a rip or stolen item is the same. So relax and if you want to feel safe, check out the site or seller online and if you are comfortable buy the material without feeling bad about it. It is most probably a perfectly legit copy of what you want.
Foucault
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New Jersey, USA
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One other advantage with some eBooks is that they are searchable. That can be really handy.
Loual4
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Montreal, Canada
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Quote:
On 2005-09-15 18:01, Roldero wrote:
OK, I'm with you on this one Louis.

I agree knowingly buying stolen or ripped-off goods is wrong.

However, Soupdragon didn't make this distinction and seemed to classify all ebooks in the same group, which had me puzzled.

Mike


You are right, Mike! I guess the key message here should be not to generalise... Although there may be some rip-offs, this doesn't mean every EBoks are rip-offs.

Have a nice day!

Smile

Louis Jutras
Parson Smith
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While not all ebooks are ripoffs, some definitely are.
At the same time, I have felt as if I was ripped off after buying hardbacks and paperbacks.
Buyer beware.
Peace,
Parson
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rikbrooks
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Olive Branch, Mississippi
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I love my Tarbell ebook from Lybrary much more than the hardbacks. There is so much information in there and I can just go in and search for 'thimbles' and get every reference.
Aus
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I don't have any exprince in the E-book aera but many books in hard copy that say 1001 Magic tricks is the same as what we are talking about. I guess the point is that there not unethical but simply that the image is much like cheep bulk packet tricks, more focus on amount and less of quilty. What does this mean? Less attention to small details that make or brake the trick.

No depth on why this method is done in a way rather then another that could do the same thing or a deep look into magic psychology. Its these things that we wont people to see in magic and that defines magic as an ART form.

These book I feel are ok for just wonting a casul trick for the informal sitaution to impress friend etc. For the more dedcated student look else where.

Magically

AUs
pasharabbit
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Most of what your getting is tricks that have been described on the internet put on a CD or just crap. If you want lots of tricks and don't want to spend lots check out the ebooks at http://www.lybrary.com, The owner is passionate about his business and just a first rate fellow. His downloads are pretty reasonably priced. You can also find many of the great 19th century magic books on the internet for free with a bit of searching. Many of those old classics are still excellent. If your really strapped for cash and your two lazy to search the internet then get Hayes' Amateur Magician I bought a paperback copy for $1.50.
Chris
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Great discussion on ebooks! First let me underscore, that Lybrary.com only publishes material to which we have acquired the rights, pay royalties or which is in the public domain. We are a serious publisher and work with some of the best magic authors alive: Roberto Giobbi, Jamy Ian Swiss, Steven Youell, Jon Racherbaumer, Aldo Colombini, Steve Mayhew, Leo Boudreau, Peter Duffie, Shigeo Futagawa, Jarle Leirpol, Hideo Kato, Jim Coles, James Watkins, and many more which I forgot. We are also digging through archives and libraries to find for you material which is otherwise extremely hard to get. Try to find a copy of 'Artanis Bottom deal', or a complete Sphinx, or some of the booklets we have republished. And if you find some of these you will literally pay thousands of dollars to acquire them. We work every day to provide to you new and old and forgotten knowledge.

A word on ebooks on Ebay and other auction sites. Be very careful and know from whom you purchase. We had to shut down half a dozen rip off operations, that sold our ebooks on Ebay. With three of these we were short before taking them to court, before they complied with our demands to undo the damage they have done. On the other hand there have been some who completely legitimately sold their personal copy of some of our CDs and deleted any copy they might have made for backup purposes. So check out the seller, ask around, ask at forums and do a little bit of searching and asking, who is the publisher of the ebooks, for example. It is always better to purchase at the publisher. If you can't determine a known legitimate publisher it is a bad sign and more digging is warranted.

Also keep in mind the service issue. If you purchase a CD from Lybrary.com, and the CD is broken, or there are any other difficulties, we will help, send a new CD free of charge, or even refund you your purchase. A thieve who is selling through Ebay will be gone the next day or might not honor returns or refunds. So even if you get it a few bucks cheaper, in the end it could be a much more expensive purchase.

Best,
Chris....
Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.
Parson Smith
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Lybrary.com has some really great offers.
Peace,
Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty. Smile
+++a posse ad esse+++
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