Some of the liveliest debates on this (or any other) magic board deal with "ethics". I enjoy reading these discussions and I've participated in more than a few. Increasingly, though, I've come to question the value of these debates.

I think we place more importance on these ethical debates than they merit, in part because they ARE so hotly contested. I can think of a few reasons for this. The first is that, by definition, these issues don't really have "right" or "wrong" answers, so they lend themselves to endless debates without resolution. Second, it's easy to come up with "difficult" hypotheticals, with strong arguments on both sides ("What if you learned it from a library book...?, etc.). Finally, because everyone has a general sense of ethics, even a rank amateur can argue about issues of ethics.

The bottom line, however, is this: No matter how articulate your defense of any particular ethic, we are a community with certain ethical norms that change only gradually. If you violate those ethical norms, some portion of the community is going to be upset with you. It's up to you to weigh whether the benefit (economic or otherwise) you derive from violating the norms is "worth it". Beyond that the discussion is academic.

I'll admit that I see one benefit from these discussions: they are a useful way (generally) to inform newcomers of the ethical norms of the magic community.

You may be thinking, "So we engage in pointless debate...so what?"

Well, what concerns me are the questions we DON'T ask or answer while we're busy debating ethics. Mainly, I think we're ignoring questions that could actually make us better magicians in the eyes of our audiences. We often ask "What's ethical in <insert highly-specific situation>?" We rarely ask "What sleight works best in <insert highly-specific situation>?" If we asked questions about performing with the same specificity with which we ask ethical questions, we might all be better off.

Maybe we need a separate thread devoted entirely to debating questions of ethics. I don't know. What do you guys think? Is there some benefit to these debates that I'm missing? Am I wrong to think that answering "what is ethical?" doesn't make anyone a better performer? Are we "magicians helping magicians" or are we "philosophers helping philosophers?"

Paul

(I suppose there's a certain irony to starting a debate on the merits of another debate, particularly when my gripe is that the original debate doesn't make anyone a better magician. My hope is that, if anyone is persuaded by what I've said here, they will direct their future efforts away from ethical debates and towards more substantive matters. To the degree that it has that effect, I think THIS debate might make us better magicians.)

Gosh, first no theory, now no ethics! Paul you must allow us some fun!



More seriously,

Can't say I agree with you here. Seems to me that the card and coin forums (fora?) are filled with highly detailed advice about specific tricks and sleights.

Discussing ethics may not directly improve your performance, but discussing what is considered ethical in a community is important when it comes to making and maintaining relationships. From these relationships, learning and improvement can occur.

Jack Shalom

There are several types of discussions about ethics. Some deal with exposure of secrets, some deal with products that may be considered "rip-offs", some deal with reselling items, some deal with using others' lines or aspects of others' routines. And there are many other discussions as well.

I think that it is important to discuss ethics. Ethics is about what is right and what is wrong, and that is something we ought not neglect. Paul, when you say that we should weigh the costs and benefits of violating norms, I agree with you, but only to an extent. In some cases, we are dealing not merely with "norms" but with questions of right/wrong. For example, suppose I were to purchase a new effect that is on the market, write up the method in my own words, and start selling it. I consider this the theft of someone's idea, which is unethical even though not illegal. It is more than just a violation of norms.

I agree that in some cases, people go overboard with discussing ethics. For example, some people get upset that magic books are available in public libraries or bookstores, and they say that authors who allow this to happen are unethically exposing the secrets of magic. I find this ridiculous. But it is still important to have the discussion.

I'd trade away all the magic theory and ethics debates ever written if it resulted in a greater focus on advice that magicians can readily use.

And I would have to disagree that the questions or advice in the card and coin forums are highly detailed.

How often do we see questions like:

What's the best way to control a card to the top?
What's the best trick using a regular deck of cards?
What's the best book of card tricks?
etc. etc. etc.

And in response to these questions, how often do we see:

Double-undercut, pass, sidesteal, overhand shuffle
Triumph, Back in Time, Twisting the Aces, Daley's Last Trick
Erdnase, By Forces Unseen, Art of Astonishment
etc. etc. etc.

I fail to see the high detail. I fail to see even minimum levels of specificity. I see questions to which there's no answer other than "it depends" and answers that are worse than useless because they take no account of the context.

But, on the other side of things, I see questions all the time like:

Is it ethical to make a prop if you've figured out how it works, but it's not currently for sale anymore?

Is it ethical to perform a published effect if you've figured out the method but don't own the book?

Those are good questions, they provide enough specificity that they can be argued precisely. So why are our questions on methods and effects so overwhelmingly lousy?

I think one major reason is that we all have experience thinking about ethical issues in day to day life. We know how to ask good ethics questions. We don't know how to ask good questions about method and effect, because we need to have a certain level of experience before we can even formulate a proper question. This level of experience can be difficult to achieve (how many life-long magic club members can't do a reliable double-lift?).

I think the other major reason we ask such lousy questions on method and effect is that no one bothers to point out that "what's the best double lift?" is a lousy question. Rather than ask for more specificity, we invariable generate an endless list of double-lifts. This stunts magical development in more ways than one. First it indicates that there's a "right" answer to a question like "What's the best double lift?" that doesn't take the context of the move into account. The questioner might as well pick one of the double-lifts at random from the list, it's as likely to be the appropriate one as any other. Worse, by giving tacit approval to questions like that, we invite more of them. It's a vicious cycle and it's bad for magic.

I'm all for high-minded discussions on theory and ethics. They're fun. They're a great way to pass the time. But they're getting in the way of people improving as magicians. They're eating up a big chunk of the finite amount of time we have available to devote to this art and we'd be better off if we saved them for another day (like after we all learn how to ask good questions and provide good answers about methods and effects).

Paul

Ashah,

I understand where you're coming from, but your argument begs the question: The value in debating "ethics" (what's right and what's wrong) is that it's about what's right and what's wrong. To merit discussion, it needs value independent of its definition.

I DO think there's independent value in debating ethics. As I mentioned before, I think it informs newcomers to this community of the community norms.

I think the ACTUAL reason we do it has more to do with pointing finger at "evil-doers" than it does with educating newcomers.

Let's put that aside for a moment.

Suppose, for the purpose of argument, that there are objective ethical truths (a debate I don't want to get into) and that we could, through debate, firmly establish what is and is not ethical.

Would anyone be a more entertaining, more technically proficient magician in the eyes of their audience because of this?

If the answer is "no" (and I think that it must be), then maybe we'd be better off spending that time debating things that will make us better performers; relying on our gut instinct about ethics and maybe making a few mistakes (if objectively there is such a thing) on the margins.

I'm not saying ethics aren't important, merely that there are vastly more important issues facing use that merit more serious debate than we afford them.

Paul

I would argue YES.

Most of the ethical questions are just as your examples: I saw the demo and figured it out, can I still perform it?

By "figuring it out" you aren't purchasing it. You are denying yourself, not only the ethical way of procuring the secret, but all the presentation points therein. Most DVDs, books, manuscripts, etc. not only give you "the secret" but also go into the various handlings, angles, presentation points and other such things. None of which you will get by simply viewing the demo.

Yes, I do think magicians would be better if they were better schooled in the theory and delivery of the presentation and not so focused on "the secret".

Irishguy,

That strikes me as a somewhat tenuous argument. Assuming that you're correct, I think the direct benefit in terms of improving the entertainment and technical abilities of magicians is small at best.

Consider this:

The magician first has to figure out someone else's trick, then he has to decide to ask if it's ethical to perform it, then he has to agree with the argument that it's not, then he has to track down the source and purchase it (assuming it's available to him or within his price range), that source has to contain additional presentation points (not all wil), then he has to study those additional points and incorporate them into his performance.

That's a lot of assumptions we have to make to see the effect you describe. However, I'll accept that, for a magician who goes through all of those steps, that magician's performing abilities may be marginally improved and that that improvement might not have happened had there not been a discussion on the ethics of him performing the trick in the first place.

All of that said, doesn't that strike you as a particularly inefficient way to go about improving the performing ability of magicians generally? If all the effort that went into the ethical argument (which only benefited the performing ability of the original questioner) had instead been put DIRECTLY into a discussion about how to be a better or more skillful performer, isn't it likely that THAT discussion would be more readily assimilated by a larger number of magicians?

We could just as well say that an ethics discussion gets people thinking about magic generally and that putting them in that mindset makes them more likely to open a book and practice something. However, we have little empirical evidence that ethical debates actually have that effect and, to the extent that we do see such an effect, it makes for a fairly uncompelling post hoc justification for ethical debates over more substantive dialogue.

Paul

How would it be in the interest of those who create those things you say you want, to offer them to those who will only disrespect both the works and the creators of those works?

Questions of ethics on boards such as these allow people the opportunity to think and then put their thoughts into words. Sometime the act of putting a thought into words does require re-thinking the original premise.

As I have said before such discussions seldom change minds since a sense of ethics comes from home, family, environment and one's history. Either you are ethical or you are not. The ethical underpinnings begin when we are still in diapers (Ron Jeremy not withstanding )

I do, however enjoy reading various peoples thoughts on these "hotly debated" issues. I realize, however, that ethics discussions are to magic boards, as abortion and gun control callers are to talk radio, guaranteed responses but occasionally tiresome.

Frank Tougas

What I meant to imply was that I'd throw away all the magic theory and ethics debates ever written HERE (as in "on the Magic Café"), if it resulted in a greater focus on advice that magicians can readily use.

I would NOT discard the entire history of magical and philosophical thought just for the benefit of people doing better double-lifts.

Sorry if I was unclear.

Does my desire to move beyond the unproductive ethical debates we have HERE necessarily mean that, if we were to do so, the unworthy would "only disrespect both the works and the creators of those works?"

Hardly. I'm not asking people to give up their notions of right and wrong; of what is and is not proper behavior in polite society. I don't believe (and I could be wrong, we're a notoriously rowdy bunch) that if we stop having interminable and pointless debates about ethics at the margins that we'll descend into anarchy. Since I'm unsure that anyone's mind has ever been changed on an issue of ethics due to their participation in a debate on the Café, I think people in such a sitution would continue doing precisely what they do now: Whatever benefits them the most and they are also ethically comfortable with.

Further, I think you mischaracterize what I say I want. What I want is useful dialogue. Nothing more. My claim is that debates about what is and is not ethical, by and large, are not useful. What would be useful are answers that delve into the "why", "how", and "what" of the performance and technique of magic, given in response to questions that pose no threat to any "works [or] the creators of those works."

I could care less if people want to share their pet routines in an open forum (I know I wouldn't).

Paul

Only "occasionally"?

Fine, now let's suppose that others were discussing your pet routines in this open forum...

How do you feel about that?

Does the "good" of the community ( more people performing better routines ) outweigh your dislike of such a discussion of your unpublished pet routines?

Jon,

I'm struggling with my response to this one, not because I think it's a difficult ethical question (I don't), but because I don't want THIS thread to become an ethical debate, particularly not one which brings up the VCA and whether or not it's ok to discuss the variations that have been published on your original theme. I think that's an interesting topic, but it's beyond the scope of this thread.

Unfortunately, it pushes me into the corner of answering a question with another question (which I hate to do). But here goes:

Threads are deleted all the time. The Café rules prohibit exposure.

Why are we better off debating whether that activity is ethical, instead of just having moderators delete the thread and send a PM to the contributors that that discussion violates the ethical norms of the community?

The upsides of that approach:

1) Newcomers learn the ethical norms.
2) Time isn't wasted on a debate that would serve no purpose but to teach the ethical norms to newcomers.
3) Time can be devoted to answering questions that don't expose unpublished routines but which still stand to improve the performing ability of the questioner.

Where's the great loss in this approach that outweighs its benefits?

If there isn't one, shouldn't we shelve the ethical debates and stick to substance?

Paul

My point is simple.

The stuff belongs to someone.

You can discuss your own stuff all you want.

However, if something of yours would greatly improve the peformance of a trick that others do... what then is the right thing to do? To share it with others for the good of the community or to withold it because we choose to respect such things as private property?

What then decides if a discussion is good?

Yeah this is turning into an ethical debate. My question is what would be your perfect forum? And how is THIS going to make us better magicians? Lastly what steps do you plan on taking apart from this thread to steer us towards becoming better magicians?

Thanks,

Adam

Adam, here are my answers.

1) My perfect forum? I get plenty of feedback from real people (laymen) and have access to competent and clever magicians who keep me from going too far astray. I seek feedback from both groups when I have routines and ideas to test.

2) How is this going to make YOU better magicians? Tough question as it is very hard to let go of old things and explore new/uncertain things. First YOU have want to change. The rest follows from your sincerity and willingness to explore.

3) What steps am I taking...? I spend MOST of my time and effort on steering my own work toward goals. I can sometimes point out options or avenues that look promising. From there, each of YOU need to find what works for you.

I suspect others will have their own answers, and together we can enjoy the process and dialog.