In our craft, each of us is expected to find our own style of performing and our own character etc for performing.

What we value are the tools and ideas that allow us to do things.

For example, does anyone here do a trick Houdini invented (okay other than the substitution trunk) ?

How about a trick Copperfield invented?

We do admire that there are great performers in our craft, and we also respect that there are those who invent the stuff we all do.

Now why aren't we also thanking others like Alex Elmsley and David Roth? These guys are still with us and could do with the gratitude

Your basing an opinion around hearsay and a set of videos where the man could barely do some of the moves he invented. I think its great that everyone has been so polite in replying to you.

Sleight King seems to be saying that because we, magicians, put such an emphasis on the ability to perform for lay audiences over being able to perform for magicians or showing technical ability, that we overrate these two. They were brilliant technically, he says, and maybe decent performance wise, but nowhere near the top in that respect.

As Jonathon says, many of us do not know enough about how either of them performed for lay audiences, except second hand, that we are limited in what we can say, but I will add this. When we say that performance for lay people often trumps technical ability, we are saying something very complex. A great performance needs both a great personality, and also a great routine. While both Marlo and Vernon developed technically demanding routines, both developed routines that were about perfect for lay audiences. We don't revere them because of their ability to do second deals, but because they left us routines like Triumph. These routines, which we chatter about endlessly on these forums, move us not because of their technical difficulty, or because of their ability to fool any of us, but because they are so wonderful to perform for lay people. I suspect that both Vernon and Marlo were better with lay audiences then we imagine, but they both certainly understood lay audiences and their needs. We revere them because they gave us the tools to be better performers, not just at our local ring meetings, but in the restaurants, corporate hospitality suites, trade shows, on the streets, and even kiddie birthday parties. And sometimes we can use their material to fool a magician.

Sleight King...
Let me suggest that the definition of, and expectations from, a "performer" have changed dramatically from the time that Vernon and Marlo were in their prime until today. These guys created, and performed, magic that intrigued and delighted their audiences.

No...I've never heard a Marlo one-liner; ask Jimmy Molinari, Tom Wolf, Steve Draun, Bill Malone, Dave Solomon or others who spent time around him...and more importantly, ask them if as a magician, he was expected to deliver punch lines.

My guess is no: my guess is that in the time they performed, magicians like Vernon and Marlo were expected to amaze, confound, befuddle and delight. One-liners did not enter into the equation.

I'd suggest that you study and learn from what these men did ("standing on the shoulders of giants," if you will), and adapt their insights to your own performance style, whatever it may be. Sleights alone do not make the magician (see Robert-Houdin).

Overrated? Nah...I'd suggest underappreciated.

Good luck.

Wow, you didn't find Vernon an entertaining guy on Revelations??! I'm baffled. Granted, he was a bit to old to perform a lot of actual magic, but the man's stories, way of speaking and knowledge had me thoroughly entertained. Come on, that Max Malini story with the Pork chop was hilarious! He was that entertaining, to me at least, WITHOUT even performing much magic, so I can only imagine that personality combined with his technical skills...he must have been completely entertaining and charming to an audience. And if you know your history, you're aware that he did in fact work nightclubs, private parties, cruises, etc from time to time. I'm sure he must have been pretty entertaining to be paid to do these things.

Before I joined the Chicago Round Table, I saw Ed Marlo perform behind a bar at a restaurant called the "Pickle Barrel". He was quite the character and the patrons had a marvelous time. He performed for years at a bar and it was his choice not to perform for layman anymore. He did what he wanted to do that gave him the most pleasure.

I also witnessed Ed performing at Schulien's Restaurant for people at a table and it was with things other than cards and it also was very entertaining to see.

As an adendum, I should ask, who do you find to be entertaining?

Have you seen them perform live, or on video? I think it's a bit unfair to Vernon to count the Revelations tapes as "performance tapes".

Unfortunately, you cannot see Marlo or Vernon perform anymore, and the technology for making affordable videos wasn't to prevalent when both men were in their prime. Perhaps if you had some original footage of them performing for an actual audience back then, your opinion might be different.

My real concern isn't that you feel they're unentertaining, but rather, what you're basing that feeling on.

They were fun, both of them! And I know, I was with them. I was at Marlo's house at three in the morning, and I was with Vernon in a barroom at midnight, and with both of them in other places as well. I saw them do magic, heard them tell stories, and watched the faces of thier audiences. Believe me, they were loved! They captivated audiences in completely different ways, but captivated them none-the-less. Too bad you missed the opportunity to see them in action, even in old age - you missed a great lesson in magic, and a greater one in people skills. Here's to the Masters, Vernon and Marlo! They live thru thier students, and thru thier memories!

Best, PSC

“To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them?”

Where Marlo and Vernon great entertainers from the “average spectators” point of view: that is the question:

Ask those who saw them entertain and let them tell you what the average spectators reaction was to their performance.

I unfortunately did not have the pleasure of seeing them perform for an audience.

Did you? If not, how have you reached the view that they were entertaining or not.

Jimmy gives us an excellent answer regarding Ed Marlo.

Tommy

I have marlo's dvd but who's this vernon?

Does he have a dvd out yet? Where can I see him perform?

You just answered your own question. And that is one of several reasons "everyone loves these guys"...

Vernon was a performer for a very long time. In fact Hardeen (Houdini's brother who also booked acts) booked Vernon. Vernon performed in night clubs as a stand up in places like the Kit Katt Club of New York. In those days - you couldn't get booked in night clubs if the performer was a bad performer.

Vernon was also booked into the privet parties of the very rich by Francis Rockefeller King. The top party planner agent of the day in New Youk City. Not a bad professional contact. And not a contact that could have happened if Vernon was a bad performer.

I have seen Vernon on TV from the Tonight Show Staring Johnny Carson to others such as Merv Griffon. I remember his appearance on the Merv Griffon show he did the cups and balls and three card Monte. After the show I wanted to work on both those effects right away! I don't think TV shows booked bad and boring performers.

Marlo to. As Jimmy Cards Molinari has already stated. I have seen Marlo entertain lay audiences and he worked in bars and night clubs as a close up magician for many years. And he was great! In fact I remember in Chicago one half hour TV show that has one of the local news people as a host did a show about Ed Marlo. The Magicians magician.

They interviewed most of the magicians that were at places like the New York Lounge and they all had an Ed Marlo story.

Vernon and Marlo were great performers that retired from performing when they lost interest in it. And they gave a lot to magic.

Wow, I know how near and dear Marlo and Vernon are to all our hearts, but please, gentleman, let us take a look at this thread from a different perspective.

Sleightking, a new user, pops into the Café, and basically p!sses in the church of purists. Pay no mind, I suspect that our original poster is the ever dreaded troll. If that is indeed the case, why take the bait?

Sean

You'll meet him one day..no doubt..

LOL yeah;)

hehe but I can se esleigh kings point btw.. I absolutely love marlo and vernon

but all he wants to say they r overrrated entertainers not overrated creaters..
they did soo much for the magic world I do agree butwhat sleightking wants to say is that there r better performers then marlo and evrnon... I think that Lepaul vernon and marlo r the greatest creaters;) I love their work
cheerio

How do we make this a better place? By treating each other in a better way.

On one of the Ed Marlos DVDs a similar question is put to Ed. (roughly from memory) :

“Some guys think your stuff is great, but not very commercial?” Ed: “It is just a matter of opinion”

I assume from this, that some respected card guys thought this. So I think it is a reasonable question, for them who do not know, to ask. I do not think people should be berated for simply asking a controversial question or having an opinion.

Tommy

Beside Tommy Wonder, there are few who both invent and present classics. Most of us tend to be stronger at one or the other. Vernon was a collector of ideas and offered us some great ideas on presentation. When I got to meet him in 87, he did the walnuts trick, and showed the wand-spin vanish, things he did very well. What I came away with was an understanding that the stuff can be integrated into one's persona and comes across as both organic and magical. I'm sorry I did not get to meet Marlo. The second hand reports of his magic seem favorable though. If you get to Chicago, you can ask the folks who got to see him perform.

Vernon and Marlo created some of the most powerful effects known to the Earth. I think they created more original stuff than 90% of all others. The skeleton or the backbone of magic. There comes a point I think where all you can do it revolutionize other effects to make them your own. Theres a limit to the pure direct original material that one can actually think of.

A lot of vernon stuff has been variationed so many times that some people don't know where it comes fro. I think twisting the aces and triumph win. There have been literally hundreds of variations of both of them yet Vernon's original are more powerful. I can almost say that half of the dvds and books on the market have a variation off of a Vernon effect(usually triumph and twisting the aces). I don't think that its bad(cause there are some awesome versions) it just goes to show how important and influetial Vernon was.

Also the cups and balls and linking rings sprouted lots of others. I think Vernon's dvds really are amazing in that they show so much, and many people think that there are too many stories. I think the stories make it better, to see Vernon's point of view of all other people that also influenced many aspects of magic.

Marlo is a whole other deal.


Josh

I can't speak about Marlo's effect on non-magicians, as I never saw him work apart from a lecture situation.

On the other hand, I did see Vernon work, both for Magicians and Laymen. I even have video of him performing for laymen. He was charming, funny, extremely entertaining, technically superb and adept at handling people.

In his prime, I'd stack him up against any modern performer, Tommy wonder included.

- entity

Magicians have their own reasons for respecting others in our field. Sometimes we look to others because of how they help us to perform better, or because they have developed effects and routines we admire or use, or maybe because we like watching them perform. Unfortunately, for many of us, we have not seen enough (or any) of Vernon's or Marlo's performances to make this a central factor in our respect we have for them. We can listen to stories and learn to appreciate what they did for those who did work with them, or watched them perform. I can't think of anyone (although they probably exist,) though, who said that either of the two were the greatest performers. Many tell me that were quite excellent, however. They are both respected, though, because of their cumulative contributions in all areas of magic. But that respect is practical. It derives from what we get and can use from their lives. That is why understading history is so important.