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redheadjuggler Regular user 125 Posts |
Hey Everyone,
As you may guess by my user name, I'm a juggler. But I'm also a working magician. I have this concept of a routine in my head that would incorperate both of my loves. As a juggler, I've studied Shaker cups (juggling three or more cups and catching them inside of one another and other stuff like that), and as a magician I love Cups and Balls. I'm working on a routine that is primarily C&B in nature, but has some of the flash of a juggling routine. My question is, what is a good, tough, cup that can take getting beat on a little? Of course price is a factor, but for now, I'm just looking for input. I'd also like input on the concept itself. Does anyone else do it already? Do you have any ideas? Thanks RedheadJuggler |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
You have to be careful when mixing magic and juggling, that the magic does not detract from the juggling and the juggling does not detract from the magic. To quote Gazzo in an interview with Michael Ammar, "I have seen guys end with three loads and then juggle them. It is always anticlimactical. It kills the routine stone dead."
If you want cups you can throw around, the Phoenix cups would be perfect. They are very heavy copper. They will take a beating. But remember that any kind of flash you do with the cups needs to be inside the routine, not after the production of the final loads. The best thing you can do, IMNSHO, is a very straightforward routine. You could do a routine with those special juggling cups.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Go to some juggling web sites (via google) they sell perfect cups for the juggling tosses and would be OK for a cup and ball routine. I would do the juggling FIRST and then KO them with the magic after. then DO NOT JUGGLE THE LOADS.
In the prelim I would juggle the big balls, then put away, juggle and toss the cups, then produce the 3 small balls... do the cups and finish with the big balls that you had juggled magically reappearing.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That's a really good idea, Pete. Have you ever considered a serious study of the cups and balls?
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Mr. Muggle Special user 999 Posts |
To see how a juggling sequence can impact a cups and balls routine seek out Aldo's Colombini's Cups and Balls. You will find this particular routine on his "Mamma-Mia Magic the Aldo Colombini Video Vol. #1". Be aware that Aldo has many versions of the cups and balls, so you'll want to get this video to see this "juggling" sequence.
Aldo doesn't juggle the final loads either, so the routine should be of some interest. At a minimum it’s an interesting twist of the cups and balls. MM
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-21 22:23, Bill Palmer wrote: Bill, don't get him sidetracked. I'm still waiting for him to finish his Linking Rings book. :online:
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-21 19:44, Bill Palmer wrote: I do juggle. And it doesn't kill. For a long time I didn't, but now I do. I even constructed a whole comedy, magic, juggling routine around it in which the loads vanish one by one. It is not anticlimactic, it played well and.... oh, now I get it. Am I the only one, starting the act with the cups and balls? mmG Roland Henning |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-21 21:55, Pete Biro wrote: The Shaker cups are what juggling supplies sell, I go as a trader to juggerling conventions plus I could juggle before I started magic. In this time I have never seen shaker cups that would be good for C&B, because there is no space between the cups when they sit in each other. Bills idea about Phoenix cups makes great sense to me because they are the right shape. On the other hand my pal uses cheap metal cups to do the same effect. Mario Quote:
Am I the only one, starting the act with the cups and balls? No, I do this at times and I have seen other performers do it regulary. Roland can I ask are you a busker? (not that it matters) Mario |
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Mr. Muggle Special user 999 Posts |
Roland what type of venue are you talking about? I can see this type of opener being used at a stage / parlor type of show- but a session on the street wouldn’t work. If you’re opening a show that isn’t on the street everyone has to sit and watch so you can “force” their interest. But if people are walking around there are much better effects to draw a crowd in with.
What about audience expectation? Aren’t the cups and balls too strong to be used as an opener? Usually there is a progression in a magic show that increases as the show goes on- ending with a large climax. Aren’t you giving the audience too much too soon by opening with the cups? How do you maintain, let alone increase the level of magic that you’re starting with? Personally I see a large chance of loosing your audience along the way because you have built up their expectations of your abilities by the choice of your opening effect. If you don’t live up to the audience’s expectations that you created, your show won’t be successful no matter how good your magic is. I try to think out of the box as much as possible, but I think that as an opener the cups and balls place the cart before the horse. I also think that it strengthens the spectators mind and judgment, making it harder to manipulate and misdirect during your act. MM I forgot to add that there are only a few sets of the Phoenix Cups left. I saw a set on eBay starting at about $100. I think that Tom Frank is trying to sell off his remaining stock. MM
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Mario, about over 35 years back I got made a wand that can withstand ANY handling, beating, whatever!
It is made out of what is called *Pertinax* or Paxolin in the UK, but NOT the paper kind, the linen kind!, which is a very touch material and used for heavy-duty electrical isolation purposes, kind of compounded/presses linen plus, and it has a dark brown colour. I never had a more solid, *lasting a lifetime wand* and I've a collection of about 15 diff. wands too, this includes screw-apart bamboo's, perspex/plexiglass (for the ring on wand) and orhers .. All I have are finely balanced for wandspins, some of them are far too heavy to carry, like the one L&L does sell and similar to the one from Pinguine, they do weight a ton and can be unscrewed, but the weight is terrible. That *Pertinax*- wand I use has the dimension: ø 12mm (1/2 inch) and a lenght of 42 cm (16.5 inches) which gives a weight = 63 grams. It is kind of a long wand for most ppl, but it suits me and the spin is always under perfect control. The wand doesn't take over, spin is easily controlled whether done very fast or slower.. Try to find that material, it is great as a *thumper*, I honestly doubt there is ANY better material -not even the best of wood- then the one I mentioned.. PS. Maybe: http://www.engnetglobal.com/c/f.aspx/HOL009 has round material of 1/2 an inch in diameter, get a sample...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-04-22 05:37, Mr. Muggle wrote: I does work. I do this for 2 years now. I have tried to do this as the finishing trick, but it didn't play as good as an opener would. And yes the cups and balls are strong. But my theory is: "Hit them hard in the beginning and they stay." And the cups and balls are by far not my strongest piece of magic. PS. I am a busker and I pay my rent doing it. PPS. The C&B are NOT my "crowd gathering routines". I do have some preluding routines in order to get a crowd. But ones the crowd is there I do the cups and balls, as an opener for the show, which last about 15 to 20 minutes. I work rather fast, so the time/effect-ratio is very high. |
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
I disagree. I think you need to continually do better and better stuff. Then people will stay.
If you open with the cups and balls, and then you do a card trick that isn't as amazing, well, they think they have seen the best. I think you need to consistantly do better and stronger magic as your routine progresses, and Roland's theory contradicts that. I agree with mr.muggle disagreeing with you. I also like Pete's idea.
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
First: My show builds. It gets stronger during the act.
Second: As I said the Cups and Balls are not my strongest bit. They are something in between. Third: I don't do card tricks. Fourth: You may disagree, but that doesn't negate the fact that I pay my rent doing magic on the street. Fifth: Having tried the other classic approaches, I remain with my opinion that the Cups and Balls as an opener suit my performing character. If you are saying, that the Cups and Balls should be last, than read my second point again. My closer is the strongest. Countless performances have proven that. If you wonder, what my closer is... its a rope routine. Works for me. mmG Roland Henning |
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Mr. Muggle Special user 999 Posts |
Roland you said that you open with your cups routine and that I was incorrect that it “wouldn’t work on the street”. But then you state that the cups are not your “crowd gathering routines”. Not to argue, but I think that this show’s the cups used as a cold opener on the street just won’t work. They apparently work for you because you already warmed up the audience. Now you have built up a crowd that is engaged with your magic, you might think that you’re formally “starting”; but in the grand scheme of things in the spectator’s minds you’re actually in the middle of your show.
Second you said your theory is “: "Hit them hard in the beginning and they stay." I wonder if the streets are different in Germany in comparison to the USA. Over here my experience is that people have short attention spans (and more important things to do than stop and watch a show); so if the magic does not keep elevating spectators loose interest and leave. I agree that you have to hit them hard, but just like in a boxing match if the punches don’t keep coming faster and harder you won’t knock your opponent out. I suppose a ‘win’ is a ‘win’, but I prefer the knock out for an ending. I might be wrong with my analysis, but to me it appears that you’re limiting yourself in your final minutes of performance by performing the cups so early on. You yourself stated that “the Cups and Balls are not my strongest bit. They are something in between.” Your words suggest that your show does not consistently build, so while this choice might work for you I personally think that you’re an exception to the rule. However you look at it, I’m glad that your show is successful and takes care of the rent. Personally I just disagree with the overall philosophy that the cups work as an opener and how the momentum should build in a show. It sounds as though your presentation and theatrics might be stronger than some of the magic that you perform, which is most likely why it works for you. In the end, all that matter’s is "does it work"? If it works for you, that's great. MM
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Roland -- If you pay your rent with it, you are doing something right. But you are probably doing something before the cups and balls to gather a crowd. That's your opener, whether you have thought about it or not. It may not be your first trick. I'm wondering about the length of your act. Most of the street acts I have seen in Marienplatz or on the Stachus have been fairly short. The same is true for the Kirchplatz in Salzburg, as well as the various performing areas in Wien.
Mario -- you don't need to have cups that have a big space between them to do a decent cups and balls routine. The Vernon impromptu routine from Stars of Magic didn't do any nesting, and it was still very effective. However, you can modify Shaker cups so they don't nest all the way down. All you need is a ball-peen hammer or a punch and a piece of hardwood with a circular depression in it. Pound a row of lumps around the perimeter of the cups about 1 inch from the opening. That's what makes the Garcia cups stack the way they do. You could even apply a row of rivets around the outside.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
*To hit them hard in the beginning* is exactly what I too think is a good approach.
Nevertheless of course, they normally solely will remember the closer, IF it is strong... My thougts -and I'm solely able to talk here re close-up/strolling and not streetwork- always where to hit them hard right away, just so they know what they can expect and so they will keep the interest... If anybody starts up with a boring card-trick (and here I'm not talking about great entertainers like Gazzo, he doesn't do a 'boring' cardtrick, but delivers entertainment using a cardtrick) they'll leave rigth away or at least aren't intersted in seing any more. One has to hook them right with the very first routine, and in Rolands case, this actually MUST be the very first trick he does, unless he can draw their attention by speech and funny lines to bypassers, Gazzo style, so I would be interested to hear more re what Roland eactly does use to 'hook' them , BEFORE he does the C&Bs.. Come on Roland, let us know more about this, it is an interesting subject..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Roland Henning Special user Kiel, Germany 511 Posts |
How I hook them.
First: I build the table, then I put the cups on top. Second: I put the cups away again, putting the "little box of wonder" on the table. Third: I ask sombody to catch the cardbox. Fourth: I say, "I am the magician here" Fifth: I ask them to remove a card. Any card. I do all of this as I am continually moving my stuff, seemingly in order to get a good place. Sixth: I toss a marker to the spectator with the card, asking him to mess up the face of the card (I don't want him to sign the card) Seventh: I take the card, showing to the people who stop by. Eight: I point to the "little box of wonder" on the table, which is far away from me. Ninth: The card is apparently lost in the deck. Tenth. I ask a kid to move to the "little box of wonder" and to open it. Eleventh: The kid says that a card is in the box. I remove the card and it proves to be the spectators card. Then the spectator is invited to check out the deck, or to watch the show. Usually they decide for the show. Then I toss the cups and balls around (yes I toss them), claiming, that a big miracle is coming up. At that point in time the crowd has gathered and I am ready to start the show with the Cups and Balls. I don't think the routines have to get stronger every time. In fact: After the appearance of the final loads, people need a break. That is why I do my comedy-juggling-magic bit. After that I do a stronger routine. And so it builds. mmG Roland |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Thanx for the explanation..it shows exactly what you do right from the beginning..
Catching there interest re what's about to happen and what they can expect..to get entertained one way or another.. I don't doubt a split sceond your 'tactic' does the job and does it well.. You're catching ppls curiousity when starting to do your set-up, works well on the street, psychology..ppl ARE curious and your first routine is one of 'action'..throwing the cardbox out aso, is 'action' and keeps them wondering aso. They'll stay wondering :*What's next*.. Great way of starting! No doubt it works well... Good luck..is it OK to call you *Mini-Gazzo* in the future ? BTW. That card in box you are starting with is another 'closer', so I now better understand your way of thinking..you really hit them hard right from the BEGINNING, that's' what pays the rent! Hope you're living in a palace ... Quote: Bill, as you know, there are 'streetacts' and 'streetacts', the quality might be varying quite a lot.
On 2005-04-22 17:08, Bill Palmer wrote: Years back in Paris I saw a streetmagician that barely did anything else then a badly done French Drop with a lot of talking and waving a wand around..a lot of shouting and building up the *nothing did happen*. Actually after watching him for a couple of minutes I did leave, his magic was that bad that I couldn't stand it..so his act was basically short, but I suppose he could draw his French drop out to 15 mins. of lousy performance. Now, I know well this is not the 'standard', because a such guy can't survive on the street and doesn't make any money, but those acts exist too.. Maybe not many anymore these days, but I experienced one.. Forgot to add, it is not a bad policy to do almost only 'closers' when doing a street act re pure magic. There are a lot of good closers one could/can use, and to keep their attention all the time, if one isn't a very good *talker* (like Gazzo), is to do powerfull magic! This doesn't mean one can't also put in some less powerfull but still magical stuff.
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Roland:
Building your table is an excellent crowd gathering device. I've seen some interesting approaches to crowd gathering at Renaissance Festivals (where it is really easy to do) and at various performance venues in Europe. Some work better than others. The idea of tossing the cards to a person in the audience is also great. The more people you have directly involved in your act, the better. One of the best "path" acts on the RenFaire circuit was a pair of swordsmen called "Puke and Snot." They had set points in their act where they would take a drink out of their tankards. Each time they took a drink, they would give the tankard to someone else in the audience circle to hold. Even though this is only superficial involvement, these people felt special. At the end of the show, the tankards were empty. And this is how they segued into their "hat pass." They would look each other in the eye and say, "Well, I think it's time to go to the tavern and have a pint." (showing their tankards empty by turning them upside down.) "What say you, Sir Puke?" "Great idea, Sir Snot! Have you any money?" "No! Do you?" "No, neither do I!" Both together, "But I know where we can get some!" And they would walk around the circle using the tankards to gather their money. Who is going to refuse to tip two strapping men who are armed with sabers! Werner: Regarding street acts in general -- there are basically two types of street entertainment -- active hat and passive hat entertainers. Passive hat entertainers, such as guitar players, accordionists, mimes, living statues generally don't do a hat pass, per se. They have a receptacle for coins and bills, and hope that you drop something in it. Active hat entertainers do a structure (more or less) show and then pass the hat. If you are doing an "active hat" act, you need a crowd gathering bit -- such as assembling the table, making noise, hawking the show, whatever -- and then you need your actual "opener." I have found a number of these that work very well for me. But you are right about the "standard." Bad acts die of starvation or go back to being chartered accountants.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Werner G. Seitz Inner circle 3131 Posts |
Yes, the guy I was refering to was a *passive* hat entertainer.
Also I didn't stay for the end of his show, it was obvious that he had placed a hat on the ground (like guitarplayers,mimes aso.), very visible to anybody and even in front of him when he moved forth and back but seldom in front of that hat. Ppl where gathered around him in a semi-circle, so he had some viewers...
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....
( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... ) |
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