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pepka Inner circle Uh, I'm the one on the right. 5041 Posts 
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My opinions are just that, opinions. I perform a few of Sankey's classics myself. I'd just like to know one thing.....
Who you callin' intelligent?!?!?! |
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Alan Rorrison V.I.P. 2494 Posts
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I am very lucky, I am a creative person naturaly and I know how to aply mt creativenss and I know how to perform all I do well. I also have very creative freinds, som know how to channel that gift and others do not, if this dvd helps them put there creative ideas to a good out put then all the best. I would rather see it and know what is about before I critivisis anything.
Alan |
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Ryan Matney Regular user 189 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-08 08:21, kihei kid wrote: No, I wasn't kidding. I don't see any point in elaborating either though. Nobody here would ever come close to agreeing with me.
www.pocket-tricks.com
The Close-Up Magic Shop |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I guess what I was reacting to are the opinions of a dvd no one has seen yet. How can it be judged?
I was also reacting to people saying that others shouldn't create new magic. I just don't get it. But, hey, I shouldn't complain. The less people that perform some of the gems in Sankeys dvds and lecture notes, the better off I am.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts
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BTW, Ryan, I may not agree with you but I would like to read an explanation of your statement. I'm not expecting you to change my mind, but I am always curious to hear counter opinions; when, of course, they are thought out and reasonable.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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ixnay66 Inner circle Denver 1525 Posts
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This is a cool place full of smart people with interesting things to say. When they say them, they explain why. Then there are people like Ryan. He makes it very easy to see why his opinions don't really matter by not backing up anything he says.
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Let me start off by saying in no way do I mean that Sankey should stop putting out material. I enjoy watching his lectures and videos, and I own some of his lecture notes, products, videos and books.
However, I am saying that he should cut back on the number of his releases and only put out better thought-out material, stuff of higher quality. Saying he is a creative genius because he puts out so much is a silly statement. His hit-miss ration is awful; something like 10% of his stuff is good. paperclipped, back in time, airtight, and a small handful of other effects are good, but the rest fall somewhere between ok and what-was-he-thinking. Second, I see nothing wrong with offering criticism for an idea. The idea of putting out a dvd to teach you to be creative and which promotes the idea of creating new magic is not only silly, its down right disrespectful to the art of magic. Unless you have a firm grasp on the magic theory, history and effects (as well as technical knowledge and proficiency) you have no place “creating” new magic. You can work on your presentation, change some handlings to make an effect work a little better for you, even change some sequences if you think it’ll strengthen the effect. Yet you cannot create new magic until you have grasped these concepts. The best magic tends to come out of the best magicians, so it stands to reason that unless you’re as good as them or better, your magic will not be as good. Now, someone will argue that the magic you create doesn’t have to be good, it just has to be a stepping-stone for others to work with. People will point to cases like Vernon’s AC and say he based in off a Hoffzinger idea. Fine, that’s a valid point. The problem is that many of theses ideas don’t end up being stepping-stones; instead, they’re a step-back. They’re simply more convoluted and less sophisticated methods of doing a similar trick created years ago. Read all you can (magic and non-magic books), go out and meet people, figure out who you are and what you want to do with magic, and then, once you’ve studied magic and have a strong grasp on it and you’re inspired, create. Quote:
On 2005-05-08 08:15, kihei kid wrote: First, let me reiterate, although I like Sankey, he’s not one of the most brilliant minds in magic. That’s like saying oz is one of the best performers in magic. Take a penguin magic break, read some books, watch some vids, and go see some real shows. If you pm me, I’ll give you a list of guys who inspire me, and who are recognized as some of the most brilliant minds in magic. Also, again, no, I’m not saying he should stop putting out videos. I’m saying he should stop putting out crap and focus more on quality and less on quantity. Yes, he does it for money, but I’ve stopped buying his merchandise, and I wont buy anything of his until he puts out some better stuff. What I meant was that with everyone clamoring for more stuff (instead of working on what they have) and it being so easy to put out dvds, everyone is doing it. I’ve seen a plethora of vids lately that have no place being marketed by performers (and I use that term lightly) that have no place releasing stuff. The reason this bothers me so much is because I love magic. What I’ve gotten out of it is way out of proportion to what I’ve put into it (not to say I don’t put a lot into it), and I don’t want to see my art destroyed by consumerism. To be fair, I feel like I know what I need so I’m not swayed by cool looking effect descriptions and testimonials. I have my stuff, and I can wait out this overflow of “magic” products that contain no redeeming qualities. Which is what I intend to do.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Let me start off by saying in no way do I mean that Sankey should stop putting out material. I enjoy watching his lectures and videos, and I own some of his lecture notes, products, videos and books.
However, I am saying that he should cut back on the number of his releases and only put out better thought-out material, stuff of higher quality. Saying he is a creative genius because he puts out so much is a silly statement. His hit-miss ration is awful; something like 10% of his stuff is good. paperclipped, back in time, airtight, and a small handful of other effects are good, but the rest fall somewhere between ok and what-was-he-thinking. Second, I see nothing wrong with offering criticism for an idea. The idea of putting out a dvd to teach you to be creative and which promotes the idea of creating new magic is not only silly, its down right disrespectful to the art of magic. Unless you have a firm grasp on the magic theory, history and effects (as well as technical knowledge and proficiency) you have no place “creating” new magic. You can work on your presentation, change some handlings to make an effect work a little better for you, even change some sequences if you think it’ll strengthen the effect. Yet you cannot create new magic until you have grasped these concepts. The best magic tends to come out of the best magicians, so it stands to reason that unless you’re as good as them or better, your magic will not be as good. Now, someone will argue that the magic you create doesn’t have to be good, it just has to be a stepping-stone for others to work with. People will point to cases like Vernon’s AC and say he based in off a Hoffzinger idea. Fine, that’s a valid point. The problem is that many of theses ideas don’t end up being stepping-stones; instead, they’re a step-back. They’re simply more convoluted and less sophisticated methods of doing a similar trick created years ago. Read all you can (magic and non-magic books), go out and meet people, figure out who you are and what you want to do with magic, and then, once you’ve studied magic and have a strong grasp on it and you’re inspired, create. Quote:
On 2005-05-08 08:15, kihei kid wrote: First, let me reiterate, although I like Sankey, he’s not one of the most brilliant minds in magic. That’s like saying oz is one of the best performers in magic. Take a penguin magic break, read some books, watch some vids, and go see some real shows. If you pm me, I’ll give you a list of guys who inspire me, and who are recognized as some of the most brilliant minds in magic. Also, again, no, I’m not saying he should stop putting out videos. I’m saying he should stop putting out crap and focus more on quality and less on quantity. Yes, he does it for money, but I’ve stopped buying his merchandise, and I wont buy anything of his until he puts out some better stuff. What I meant was that with everyone clamoring for more stuff (instead of working on what they have) and it being so easy to put out dvds, everyone is doing it. I’ve seen a plethora of vids lately that have no place being marketed by performers (and I use that term lightly) that have no place releasing stuff. The reason this bothers me so much is because I love magic. What I’ve gotten out of it is way out of proportion to what I’ve put into it (not to say I don’t put a lot into it), and I don’t want to see my art destroyed by consumerism. To be fair, I feel like I know what I need so I’m not swayed by cool looking effect descriptions and testimonials. I have my stuff, and I can wait out this overflow of “magic” products that contain no redeeming qualities. Which is what I intend to do.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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funny_gecko Elite user 436 Posts
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But let's face it.. a lot of it is about money.. they al lsell individual tricks like penguin magic that are expensive. it is best the wau it is but only if there was a way if you were serious about it you could get it for fre.. but then again if you ar eserious you probBLY WONT MIND HTE MOENY... what if some poor person loved magic soo mch but could not afford all the who ha that would suck
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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First, oops, I double posted. my bad.
second, I have no idea what you just said, but I am serius about magic and I don't mind spending the money on stuff, as long as I get at least what I pay for. so when I am told that someone has the best version of a trick that I love, then I don't mind spending the money on the vid. but if its not well thought out, or not really that good, then I regret spending the money, and I not only am hesitant to buy from that seller in the future but I tell other consumers to be warry as well. Im not sure if you were talking to me or not (or talking period. gibberish?) so I'm not sure if I'm addressing your post. cheero!
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Nik_Mikas Regular user Toronto, Ontario, Canada 159 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-08 05:12, ixnay66 wrote: Yes, we would be better off if Sankey didn't take other peoples tricks that they had kept secret and release them so seemingly infinite amounts of children can perform them like crap. That would, in my opinion, make magic better. But while you can blame him for stealing material, you can't for reinventing it accidentally. I mean, how much do you expect a guy who has approximatly 3 books to know about the history of magic? Yes, he sure is a genius. Too bad he doesn't have the power to destroy old magazines, thus destroying the evidence that he didn't really originate most of his good effects (and some of the bad ones too). I'm pretty sure if you name any Sankey effect, someone can trace it to a relatively recent magazine (last 100 years or so. If you say that is too long to effectively trace credits, then you shouldn't be commenting at all). |
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Mark Storms Veteran user Seattle, WA 393 Posts
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Jay sankey is a VERY creative individual! I own several of his dvds and I almost always find something that gets great reactions from laymen. And yes "front row" was excellent! Just because the stuff he releases is not the biggest newest magician fooler doesn't mean that it is not good. I have just purchased this DVD and I plan to write a review once I have watched it through. I have quite honestly been waiting for something like this to come along as I have always wanted to have effects of my own. Everything I perform is someone elses effect. I see it as like a musician wanting to have his own songs rather than playing cover songs the rest of his life. Sure he can change the way the song sounds but deep down he knows those words aren't his. Im not sure how the rest of you feel about this. I love effects that are already out but I would love something I created much more. As to the question of weather this dvd will help me create: it may or may not. However, I'm sure it will at least aid and push my thinking into new areas. I am hopeful in my investment.
Find out what you cannot do.., Then go and do it!
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LR2 Regular user Humble, Texas 116 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-08 22:57, Mark Storms wrote: I do not know if this could have been said any better. 
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts
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Uh, Sankey does know quite a bit about magic history. And I always hear him credit other people for moves, inspiration for effects, etc. And, I hate using cliches but there really is nothing new under the sun. It's ALL been done before. All one can do is put one's own spin on it.
It's the same in any art form, music, drama, movies... everything. All the stories have been told. All the effects have been created. It's what you DO with them that makes them unique. There are a ton of magicians who have independently created effects that are almost identical but had no idea they were doing so. Blame it on collective conscious or whatever. It just happens. Did Sankey really steal Paperclipped or is that a rumor? I don't know. It is a *** good effect, though. Now I will agree with one thing that has been stated repeatedly; Sankey does put too much material out on the market. And it is a shame that most people who are consuming this stuff probably won't perform it well. But I don't blame Sankey as much as I blame (which I really can't do either) the Internet. Folks, I'm sorry to say it, but there are a lot of kids who are into magic. And the Internet has made it really easy for them to find it. Too easy. Fortunately, most kids who only want to learn "cool" tricks and aren't really into magic, will mostly buy easy to do gimmicked tricks and not so much the dvds and books (especially not the books) because they don't want to take time to learn sleights and so forth. They don't have the patience. It is a shame that as of now, Sankey products are only available at Penguin which seems to magnetically draw these 12 year old carnivorious magic consumers who wouldn't know Dai Vernon from Preston Sturges. But the good news is this... most laymen have never heard of Jay Sankey (or Dai Vernon, or even Preston Sturges for that matter. Now, THAT is a shame!). And although we lament the fact that all of the good secrets are being leaked to the general populace via small, fumbling, unexperienced adolescent hands, the fact is the majority of laymen will never see these tricks. Only a bunch of really annoyed parents. And our secrets are still relatively safe. I think we sometimes forget that the magic universe is not that big. And most people don't care one way or the other about learning magic secrets. In fact, most laymen that do learn secrets, forget them not long after. Sometimes my wife figures stuff out. But then I'll show it to her again a month later and she's already forgotten how to do it. So even though Jay and some other magicians may be overselling themselves, the situation is not as dire as it seems. Anyway, I will be curious to read people's opinions of the DVD. I think deconstructing the creative process in any art form can be invaluable. If Stanislavski hadn't done it, the art of acting might not be where it is today (And before the actors/magicians on this forum bite my head off, no, I'm not comparing Jay to Stanislavski). Or maybe the dvd sucks. I don't know... But I'll pass judgement if and when I actually see it.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Lol, nik, you're crazy man.
I have seen Jay miscredit people on his DVDs. But he has more than three books, assuming you count the ones he owns. 
I'm not trying to bash Jay. I think he's got some cool stuff and hes wicked fun to watch, but to say he's good because his stuff gets reactions? Man, almost everything gets a reaction! Do a trick that has no "flow" to an audience, no plot. Force a card, read their mind, then show it has a red back, but no patter. Just do it like that. "Did you see one? good. Look me in the eyes." Pause. "Four of spades." Pause. "Heres the wierd thing, out of all the cards you could have thought of, your picked the 4. The only one with a red back in the blue deck." You'll get a reaction. A pretty good one too. Doesn't mean it's a good effect. And if you believe it is, then I'm going to start putting out DVDs. Second, if everythin has been created before at all that matters is the presentation and what you do with it, why buy Sankey? Why buy a routine from a guy who's only been playing with something for a month when you could buy a routine from a worker who's been honing it for 30 years? Listen, I can express my opinion all I want, its up to you wether you buy it or not. If you enjoy it, good, I'm glad to hear it. I truely am. It really doesn't affect me in any way except for isolating me in my art. And taking a cue from Jason (I think that's the guy's name), I'm not going to bother explaining that. Enjoy the video man, if you live in Toronto or ever come visit, look me up. I'd love to check out what you come up with.
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Mark Storms Veteran user Seattle, WA 393 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-09 00:21, Nordatrax wrote: Yup nortrax that is a great effect and there are some people just beginning magic that would be entralled to learn it. I don't care about how many sleights a routine has. To me magic is entirely about the spectators experience. You get to share their experience through their reactions. If ANY effect gets a good reaction then I say go for it and entertain the pants off some laymen. That's what I'm in it for anyways. As for you producing your own dvd? I wouldn't mind you putting that effect on a dvd of your own if the effect was not published by any other magician. Or if it was and you credited it I would love to see it on a dvd. I may sound like a fool for that and a lot of magicians wouldn't care to see it because they are looking for an effect to fool themselves. Anyway, I respect your opinion nordtrax but I hope you can see where I am coming from. TILL LATER, FIND OUT WHAT YOU CANNOT DO THEN GO AND DO IT!
Find out what you cannot do.., Then go and do it!
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-05-08 14:02, Ryan Matney wrote: Sorry to hear that. Quote:
I don't see any point Your kidding me (again), right? The whole “point” for coming to the café in the first place is to read and exchange ideas with others (magicians helping magicians). Quote:
in elaborating either though. By “elaborating” you will then be able to give us your thoughts on why magic would be, as incredible as it may seem to me and others, “better off’ without his knowledge and creativity. Quote:
Nobody here would ever come close to agreeing with me. And for very good reasons Ryan.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts
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Nordatrax, do you really get the same reactions from all the effects you perform? I don't. It depends on the audience and the effect. And just because I perform Jay Sankey effects, doesn't mean I perform them like Jay Sankey. Because, hey, I'm not Jay Sankey. I perform them like me. I put my own twists on things. In fact any magic I learn from a dvd or book, I put my own spin on. Most effects for me are just springboards for creating my own effect and presentation.
BTW, how long does a plot or trick have to be to be good? In strolling situations especially, I find that the shorter and more direct the effect, the better. Most people don't have time or patientce to listen to a story about "when I travelled to the far reaches of India..." Look, I'm not
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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Alan Rorrison V.I.P. 2494 Posts
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Yes yes, hes a bad bad man, but keep in mind hes the one making the cash, envy is a bad thing
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts
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Again, no offense, but I feel like your all supporting what I'm saying. if his tricks aren't original (which they arnt) and you don't use his presentations, what is he contributing besides a ton of videos that you don't need?
Should he stop putting them out? of course not! Not while people still buy them! What I'm saying is that we should be more selective with what we buy, and therefor ensure a higher standered in magic production. Quote:
On 2005-05-09 10:46, cfrancis wrote: No, I don't. that's why I spent years working on building a repertoire and why I'm still working to complete it. that's one of the issues with sankeys material. I think its fun to play with, and when I'm with friends or just showing people magic for fun, sure, ill whip out a sankey. but to say hes one of the most creative and clever minds in magic? I'm only arguing/suggesting 3 things. 1) be selective in you choice of effects and purchases. don't buy something just because someone you like put it out. buy it because its good and you want it. 2) sankey, while not bad, is without a doubt not the greatest/cleverest magician of our time. 3)dont create for the sake of creating. create because you are inspired. and if your inspired you don't need a video to tell you how. also, remember, often the quality of your creation is related to the quality of your knowledge. the more you know about magic, the better you creation should be (compared to you creation if you didn't know much about magic. this is an introspective comparison, not between you and anyone else). as far as the putting out a dvd, I have story. I enjoy creating magic, and I enjoy performing magic. I was offered by someone who owns a magic publishing company (you know who you are) to publish some stuff. I turned it down. why? for two reasons. the first, I didn't think I was bringing anything new to the table, and while I enjoy my stuff, a lot of it is stuff I don't even do in my professional performance. if I cant use it, who can? second, and related to the line above, I didn't want to feel silly when no one bought it, (a valid point because I'm not sure I would have bought it). I don't want an ego basher like that. be slective, and remember magic is an art and should be respected and loved. in that order. ;)
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
Check out www.TorontoMagicCompany.com for upcoming shows, and instagram.com/train.ben for god knows what! |
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Posted: May 8, 2005 04:59 pm 
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