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PK
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There is another thread discussing the legitamacy of psychic readings. I 100% that most readers beleive in their systems and are not out to deceive.

However, I want to look at it from a slightly different slant.

Lets say a person works as a psychic reader. They knowingly use cold reading techniques. The reader knows they have no psychic ability but at the same time is a good person who wants to help people.

The moral objection from cynics is that this is deception and is therefore morally wrong.

However are the cynics justified in saying that such a deception is morally wrong?

If in PRINCIPLE we can show that sometimes such a deception is morally justified then the cynics argument collapses.

Imagine the following scenarion:

Madam Rosa has worked as a psychic for many years. She has no real abilities but uses cold reading techniques. She makes a decent living as a medium/ psychic but at the same time genuinely cares about the people she gives readings for.

Prof Smith decides to look into whether the readings actually help people. Fortuanately he has a time machine and is able to set up an interesting experiment.

He interviews all the millions of people Madam Rosa has ever given readings for ( she is a very busy psychic!). They all say the readings have had a real beneficial effect on their lives.

He then goes back in time and asks Madam Rosa not to give any of the people readings. In the future when he compares how their lives have turned out he discovers that without the readings the people have lived comparively unhappy lives.

Prof Smith is a sceptic/cynic and he believes that pretending to have psychcic abilities is morally wrong.

But here is his dilema. He could go back in time and have madam Rosa arrested for fraud. But if he does he knows that the millions of people who have had readings will live miserable lives without them.

Prof Smith is forced to come to a very difficult conclusion: fraud is not always morally wrong - it cannot be.

HERE IS THE QUESTION: In what way has Madam Rosa done anything morally wrong? Surely it would be morally wrong for Prof Smith to go back in time and stop Madam Rosa doing her readings?

The conclusion must be that in principle the cynics moral objection is flawed.

Indeed in principle it seems that knowingly using cold reading techniques is morally justified. Logically it must be.

PK
Dr_Stephen_Midnight
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It largely depends on your moral compass.
You have already pointed yours in a given direction, obviously, so a response is almost pointless.
In effect, you are asking if surgery is good or bad, with the assumption that it is good. Is it bad because a person has to be cut upon, or good because it affects a treatment leading to a cure?
My take (for surgery) is that it is the lesser of two evils. It is not a good thing to be cut upon, but it is a worse thing to die of a treatable disease.
The example you give (as per readings) tells of a positive outcome. What if the outcome for the person who got the reading turns out to be negative? What if the reading does more harm than good?
Life is full of questions. Don't expect too many answers that are not open to further questions.

Steve
Dr. Lao: "Do you know what wisdom is?"
Mike: "No."
Dr. Lao: "Wise answer."
Slim King
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Why can't Madam Rosa just get a job as a councelor? No dilema there?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
PK
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On 2005-05-10 07:14, Dr_Stephen_Midnight wrote:
It largely depends on your moral compass.
You have already pointed yours in a given direction, obviously, so a response is almost pointless.
In effect, you are asking if surgery is good or bad, with the assumption that it is good. Is it bad because a person has to be cut upon, or good because it affects a treatment leading to a cure?
My take (for surgery) is that it is the lesser of two evils. It is not a good thing to be cut upon, but it is a worse thing to die of a treatable disease.
The example you give (as per readings) tells of a positive outcome. What if the outcome for the person who got the reading turns out to be negative? What if the reading does more harm than good?
Life is full of questions. Don't expect too many answers that are not open to further questions.

Steve



If readings are not helpful then morally it would not be justified. But everyone would agree with that.

However cynics will argue that even if they do help it is still deception and therefore must be morally wrong. It is this position I am interested in.

Provided readings are helpful and the reader is genuine in their want to help people then what is morally wrong if they solely use cold reading techniques?

PK
Osiris
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Long ago I had an old Shaman explain to me that in order to Heal a situation, something must die e.g. if a person has cancer you must kill the cancer or else, kill the person in order for the cancer to live...which is the lesser evil?

For starters, anyone that does Readings for a living that is "in the know" will tell you that it is not one in the same as doing Cold Readings. Cold Reading technique was developed for the stage and has been augmented to a limited degree for use of the psuedo-psychic. Bare in mind that Cold Reading or "Profiles" more accurately, are employed by numerous fraternities for the sake of "advantage" e.g. Law Enforcement, Sales, Counselling/Mental Health services, politicians, statisticians, the clergy... the list seems rather infinite at times. It is likewise where a great deal of misinformation comes from -- assumptive knowledge or, to be more direct "Type Casting". We are all familiar with the negative stereotype that pertains to persons of this or that race, nationality, religion, political party, et al. Do these stereotypes fit everyone actually in each of those categories?

Of course they don't! But they are common traits found within those groups. I can assure you however, there are a heck of a lot of black people that don't like fried chicken or water melon (at least that's what my kids tell me and they are half-black). I'm also too aware of the fact that a large number of gay men don't swish when they walk, talk with with a lisp, or appreciate Barbera Stisand (sp)e.g. the majority of those that lean on the cold reading idea trip over their own two feet and prove themselves a joke.

Yes, many "educated" Readers/Counsellors (including the so-called "legit" types) use the foundation of the Forer effect to a limited degree...it's what most of us call "filler" material. Yes, there is a kind of "canned" spiel involved in that each of the cards or stones or whatever you're using as an oracle, has its own meaning and thus, you are sewing that information into what you are sharing with the client. Too, the meaning of these things will vary based on location in the spread, the frequency of suit and many other elements used for fine tunning the story being disclosed to the sitter. Couple all that with one's own intuition, personal observations, etc. and you begin to see how what a Reader does is not one in the same as what magicians do (though most magicians seem too lazy to learn all the nuances and "science" allied with the Reader's art. They are content with one explanation and one explanation only... why work?)

As I've said elsewhere, 96% of the people you'll meet who do Readings are honest, good hearted individuals that come from a sincere humanitarian place of conscience. Sadly, that other 4% is out to steal from whomever they can, however they can. They are what I call the "Anna Riva" psychic in that they follow almost word for word, the Anna Riva idea of banking money as a Reader e.g. they pronounce curses, sell spells, and encourage co-dependence in them from the patron. Many of these operations are part of a family network that's spread across a given city area. They target the poor, the religeously superstitious, the nieve, loonely and ignorant for the most part -- soft targets, for lack of a better term. Ironically (statistically) this tends to be persons of hispanic, black and poor white trash market sectors (in that order). You will find this kind of operation rather prolific in the deep southern states of the U.S. and to some degree, the south west. In the northern states it seems to conceal itself in major metro areas rather than urban communities.

Also within that 4% factor are the aspiring gurus and cult leaders. They can wear just about any kind of mantel but most tend to lean upon what works -- a Christian based format. I've encountered several "country preachers" using billet techniques straight out of Nelson's notes over the years. One, in my home town! Unfortunately, there are laws in many states that allow this kind of deception to continue, so long as there is no group complaint put forth to governing authorities. In other words, it's ok for a Baptist minister to use Cold Reading and billet work to spead the gospel but not ok for the local Pagans to do tarot readings... kind of a classic double standard if you would.

Let me qualify that last statement in that some may wish to debate its validity... I come from a long line of "evangelic" ministers, circuit preachers, and tent revivalist. I'm the black sheep of the family because I don't make my living bilking the public selling God. Instead, I use my knowledge to help protect the public from such cons and inspire them to stand on their own two feet. This makes me a rebel and an outcast. Try as I may, I simply haven't that much disrespect for folks and must take a more honorable approach in what I do. Granted, some of my associates in the magic world refuse to see it that way, but that's not my problem. I know what I do and I have a clear conscience about it.

Through my work as a Reader and metaphysically based minister, I've helped dozens, if not hundreds of people get off of drugs, booze, and other self-destructive paths. I've helped families heal old wounds, and guided many an angry young soul back "into the light" as it were, that they may do good for others -- a pay it forward kind of thing. In bringing my work in this field into the world of professional magic, I've also helped open the door for others that have beliefs, be it in the Divine or the paranormal, to know that it's ok to believe and just because you're part of the magician's world, you don't have to be a jerk, an atheist, or an "in your face" cynic. My relationship with some of the biggest names in the Skeptic's world has also helped soften their message to a significant degree, encouraging people to THINK rather than jump to conclusions or assume things "blindly".

In order for something to be a "rip off" it is a matter of personal perspective and experience. I for one would never invest the hundreds of dollars charged by so-called "successful magicians" for their marketing courses. I think it's a bold rip off and that they are being predatory. Especially when I, for far less money, can go to the source (Dale Carnegie)... yet, others will gladly cough up the cash because they too are magicians and they believe in investing in the promised pipe dream. Rarely do they consider the statistics and how the odds are against them, no matter what they try. It's a numbers game and a matter of knowing the right people and being in the right place at the right time, with the right attitude.

When it comes to the affectiveness of a Reading we find the same exact thing. Some of us find it a thing of value, some do not.

I recently had a young man complaining about his mother not giving him money for clothes but she'll cough up $300.00 to send him to a noted psychic. She believes that the $300.00 Reader is better than any local $50.00 Reader because of experience and placebo factors; her own ego is blinding her but, to her there is value in what she is paying for. For her, it works! That does not mean that I support her decision. Frankly I can't see why anyone would willingly pay a counselor of any kind, that kind of cash. But we do have our Beverly Hills crowd that believes it must spend that kind of money for it to work...for it to have genuine value and be worth while. It's a matter of personal perspective and, as Ron Martin, Herb Dewey and others have pointed out in the past, some people need to spend more.

Well, I've rambled sufficiently and have hopefully shined a bit of light on this issue. Too, I hope and pray that we don't end up with a tit for tat debate in this thread. Seeking understanding of the issue is one thing, trying to cram one's point of view down everyone's throat is another.

Later!
Thomas Rudolfo
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Hi PK,

Great little essay indeed. I love the way you try to discus this topic. Basicly I absoluteyl agree with you.
So I also want to give you my personal rules of psychic readings about what is moral and what is not.

Later I will mention a true story which was the intension for me to when chance comes up to put bad, I mean really bad readers, out or business.

In my years of performing mentalism it sometimes happens to me (as it happened to many other mentalists), that peersons really believed that I must have these abilities and want a reading. I should mention that I do like Banachek or Osterlind and that I never make any claims about spcial powers.

So than of course I try to deliver a few cold reading techniques to them also. But with one major premisse. IMO a psychic should NEVER tell bad things. The clients must be telled things they subconciously already know, i.e. special abilities, hobbies, names of relatives etc.

So then when it comes to questions about future (thats of course the main interest of demanding a reading), the reader also MUST strenghten out the special abilities of the client.
I.e. if you discovered that the client basicly is a positive thinking person but sometimes hesitates to make important decisions with your words you could encourage the client to make decisions and go for his/her goals.

So I mean a psychic reader really can give people a meaning to their life as long as its positive and not specific. So now I come up to a very important point IMO. You never ever should be specific on readings regarding future. Even if you say positive things about the clients future it can change their life dramatically or even end it.

So now to my little ture storiy I mentioned above. Many years ago I had a quite good friend Mike (name changed as all others in this story), who had a very good friend himself, lets call him Paul. Paul had a sister named Mary.
Mary was suffering for depression quite a long time due to loss of her husband. After years she had a new boy-friend who tried to help her through her depressions as good as he cans. Really a good and caring person.

Mary was strongly believing in psychic things and that every thing happens in life must be predetermined by destiny.
One day she visited a psychic reader here in Vienna. She told Mary many things about her pas life, thanks to cold reading and observation techniques, and then began to tell her SPECIFIC things about her future.

One thing was that she told Mary that she will have a terrible car accident in near future in which seh and her boy-friend will be hurt seriously but both will recover and this experience will strenghten their partnership.
Not doubt that this "medium" maybe wanted to mean something positive. But the results were drama.

One week later Mary commited suicide. She left a letter in which she detailed covered the whole reading and, even that the medium told her the accident will result in positive ending (after the serious injuries), she never want to have her beloving boy-friend suffer from even just one little injury. Additional to losing her husband in the past she wrote that she can't stand this knowledge about her future any more and so she had to do what she did......suicicde!!

Of course all were shocked at that moment. But the shock even became bigger when her brother Paul went to the medium who gave Mary the reading to talk to her about this tragedy.
The medium fully confirmed every detail about the reading and in the same moment she felt sorry for Mary's death she stated to Paul that this was destiny. And she went on in saying that while giving the reading to Mary she saw her suicide but didn't want to menion it so she told about the accident because with the positive ending she thought she would encourage Mary to live more positive.

I should mention that my friend Mike (the good friend of Paul) and I were also present at this conversation. Reason was that Mike knew me as a mentalist and wanted me to give my opinion on the whole situation as a knowledged person.

At first moment when I heared all the statements of the "medium" I was shocked!!
Paul, Mary's brother, wanted to go to police and wanted to accuse this so called medium of complicity for Mary's death.

Result was a conviction of the medium for complicity since Mary was a fully aware adult person and it was her free will and decicion to attend the medium.
But the "medium" was convicted to pay a huge amount to Mary's family. (no comment on that)
To come to an end now. All I know ist that the so called medium was bankrupt and we never heared anything about her.

I still have contact to Mike and his friend Paul.

So why did I mention this tragic story. As a conclusion I can say that whenever you give a reading to a person IMO you should follow some basic and moral rules.
That are:

Before you even start to do readings you should be aware of the reasons why people attend you. Yes, they want to hear something about their future. But, NO, they do not want to hear bad things about accidents (even if they will survive it), death of perople they love, etc.

Its like beeing praised for good work. You know that you did a good job but if somebody tells you that you did and prais you you feel much better and this strenghtens yourself-confidence.
that's what a reading should go for.

So agin my personal rules for a reading in general:

Just tell positive and general things about future. Nothing specific on incidents or similar.
You never know the complete background of a person. Even if you're a master of cold reading and observation you can not know every detail about a person's life (as in my story).
Thus IMO you only should encourage a person with general statements about going for their dreams, some very happy moments will occur in near future, etc.

Wow, that was one of my longest postings here and one of the most emotional posting.
I hope I could make some points and my opinion clear.
Once again congratualtion to you PK for your analyses and example.

Greetings
Thomas
Think positive and you'll see, how beautiful your life can be!

www.der-mentalist.net
enriqueenriquez
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PK thanks for a terrific thread!

I also have a question that has been bugging me the last few days, and it’s very much related with yours:

In which way is militant cynicism morally right?
sludge
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Quote:
On 2005-05-10 07:21, Slim King wrote:
Why can't Madam Rosa just get a job as a councelor? No dilema there?


Because she lives in a country like Britain where the culture is such that people who use counsellors are generally assumed to be "crazy" or at least to have a mental health problem and Rosa's clients are sane and healthy.

People who would never use the services of a counsellor or psychiatrist deserve access to friendly help and support too.

IF any readers (not "mediums" as they don't give readings - they contact the dead) provide a negative reading - ( I doubt they exist, or if they do they are very, very rare) they should be flogged. But the many positive, helpful readers should not be punished, exposed etc.

Should all drivers be banned from driving just because there are some disgraceful individuals who drive recklessly?
shrink
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>>>Should all drivers be banned from driving just because there are some disgraceful individuals who drive recklessly?<<<<

No but at leat they are made to sit a driving test and be compitent to a nationally agreed level.

In my limited exposure to readers via psychic fayres there were a high percentage of negative readings even damaging advice such as "leave your husband".

Then again I wouldn't allow most counselors or psychiatrists to walk my dog...let alone work with clients..

Shrink
Thomas Rudolfo
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Hi sludge,

Good post. In short words you absolutely brought it up to the point. First it is of course a matter of culture. In this case its the same here in Austria.

Helpful readers should have right to exist in our society. And yes, there are bad readers (here in Austria mediums also can mean reader sometimes), like my story, but I agree that they are indeed fortunately very rare.

SO I fully agree with you. One more point to mention. I'm also educated in psychology and I know that there are also "bad" psychitrists and counsellors.
So again, All is relative.

Thomas
Think positive and you'll see, how beautiful your life can be!

www.der-mentalist.net
sludge
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Shrink & Thomas,

I whole-heartedly concur,


ade
D.Paul
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I think giving any advice when these people are clearly lying is totally wrong, not matter which way you look at it. No matter how nice a person is, taken money then feeding a load of nonsence back is scaming. How can you trust a person to be honest when they lie to your face then charge you for it ? Is it just me or does that not sound criminal to anyone else ? I know they believe that giving people readings makes them feel better, but so does snorting coke but its wrong, damaging in the long run and illagel.
FDarevil
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When I was a young boy I wanted to become a surgeon ! Actually if my intentions are pure I could try right now on... you !.. Ok I know nothing about surgery but I REALLY WANT TO HELP YOU !.. Smile

It's the same with almost all the "psychic" ! They know nothing about psychotherapy but they pretend that their good intentions are enough to do a good job ! On top of that they "predict" what will happen in your life so there is no reason for you to look for a new girl friend if the psychic said : "you won't find anyone until next year !". I've already heard these sort of stupid predictions !
PK
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Quote:
On 2005-05-10 09:51, D.Paul wrote:
I think giving any advice when these people are clearly lying is totally wrong, not matter which way you look at it. No matter how nice a person is, taken money then feeding a load of nonsence back is scaming. How can you trust a person to be honest when they lie to your face then charge you for it ? Is it just me or does that not sound criminal to anyone else ? I know they believe that giving people readings makes them feel better, but so does snorting coke but its wrong, damaging in the long run and illagel.


I understand why you say it is morally wrong becasue there is a deception involved.

However I am intersted in seeing if that conclusion is valid.

I think the way to approach it is a 2 step approach

STEP 1. Examine whether in PRINCIPLE psychic readings can be morally justified - even if the reader knows they are just using cold reading techniques.

STEP2. If in principle the readings can be morally justified examine whether the necessary critera is met in REAL LIFE situations.

So first of all we need to deal with step one. The principle being examined is whether readings, using nothing but cold reading techniques, can morally justifed.

In brief:

(a) The reader knows they are only using cold reading
(b) But they have a genuine want to help people
(c) The readings actually are helpful and beneficial

So in PRINCIPLE (not reality yet) is there anything morally wrong here?

Critics say it must be wrong because it is a deception.

But it seems to me the critics run into a problem here. They have made the assumption that a deception is always morally wrong. However if the result of the deception is that it does a lot of good then how can it be morally wrong?

To simply say a deception is wrong because it is a deception is a circular argument and a logical fallacy.

Surely the only valid conclusion can be this:

If the above principles are satisfied then in principle such a deception is morally justified.

Next we move onto step 2.

Provided we can satisfy the necessary critera in real life situations there is no real moral problem with giving readings - using purely cold reading techniques.

The argument that it is morally wrong becasue it is deception fails (unless someone can show why the conclusion is incorrect).

Of course in reality the situation is actually much more positive than my scenario. As Ostris has pointed out most readers actually do believe they have real abilities.

However in the case of the small number of readers who know what they do is not real, then provided the Step 1 critera is satisfied there is (in my view) no moral problem.

PK

Quote:
On 2005-05-10 08:29, enriqueenriquez wrote:
PK thanks for a terrific thread!

I also have a question that has been bugging me the last few days, and it’s very much related with yours:

In which way is militant cynicism morally right?



This is going to have me thinking for a while!

PK
Joshua Quinn
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Another tangentially related question: When did it become okay to label everyone who has moral objections to deceptive psychic readings as "cynics"?
Every problem contains the seeds of its own solution. Unfortunately every problem also contains the seeds of an infinite number of non-solutions, so that first part really isn't super helpful.
Gede Nibo
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Quote:
On 2005-05-10 08:02, Osiris wrote:
Long ago I had an old Shaman explain to me that in order to Heal a situation, something must die e.g. if a person has cancer you must kill the cancer or else, kill the person in order for the cancer to live...which is the lesser evil?

For starters, anyone that does Readings for a living that is "in the know" will tell you that it is not one in the same as doing Cold Readings. Cold Reading technique was developed for the stage and has been augmented to a limited degree for use of the psuedo-psychic. Bare in mind that Cold Reading or "Profiles" more accurately, are employed by numerous fraternities for the sake of "advantage" e.g. Law Enforcement, Sales, Counselling/Mental Health services, politicians, statisticians, the clergy... the list seems rather infinite at times. It is likewise where a great deal of misinformation comes from -- assumptive knowledge or, to be more direct "Type Casting". We are all familiar with the negative stereotype that pertains to persons of this or that race, nationality, religion, political party, et al. Do these stereotypes fit everyone actually in each of those categories?

Of course they don't! But they are common traits found within those groups. I can assure you however, there are a heck of a lot of black people that don't like fried chicken or water melon (at least that's what my kids tell me and they are half-black). I'm also too aware of the fact that a large number of gay men don't swish when they walk, talk with with a lisp, or appreciate Barbera Stisand (sp)e.g. the majority of those that lean on the cold reading idea trip over their own two feet and prove themselves a joke.

Yes, many "educated" Readers/Counsellors (including the so-called "legit" types) use the foundation of the Forer effect to a limited degree...it's what most of us call "filler" material. Yes, there is a kind of "canned" spiel involved in that each of the cards or stones or whatever you're using as an oracle, has its own meaning and thus, you are sewing that information into what you are sharing with the client. Too, the meaning of these things will vary based on location in the spread, the frequency of suit and many other elements used for fine tunning the story being disclosed to the sitter. Couple all that with one's own intuition, personal observations, etc. and you begin to see how what a Reader does is not one in the same as what magicians do (though most magicians seem too lazy to learn all the nuances and "science" allied with the Reader's art. They are content with one explanation and one explanation only... why work?)

As I've said elsewhere, 96% of the people you'll meet who do Readings are honest, good hearted individuals that come from a sincere humanitarian place of conscience. Sadly, that other 4% is out to steal from whomever they can, however they can. They are what I call the "Anna Riva" psychic in that they follow almost word for word, the Anna Riva idea of banking money as a Reader e.g. they pronounce curses, sell spells, and encourage co-dependence in them from the patron. Many of these operations are part of a family network that's spread across a given city area. They target the poor, the religeously superstitious, the nieve, loonely and ignorant for the most part -- soft targets, for lack of a better term. Ironically (statistically) this tends to be persons of hispanic, black and poor white trash market sectors (in that order). You will find this kind of operation rather prolific in the deep southern states of the U.S. and to some degree, the south west. In the northern states it seems to conceal itself in major metro areas rather than urban communities.

Also within that 4% factor are the aspiring gurus and cult leaders. They can wear just about any kind of mantel but most tend to lean upon what works -- a Christian based format. I've encountered several "country preachers" using billet techniques straight out of Nelson's notes over the years. One, in my home town! Unfortunately, there are laws in many states that allow this kind of deception to continue, so long as there is no group complaint put forth to governing authorities. In other words, it's ok for a Baptist minister to use Cold Reading and billet work to spead the gospel but not ok for the local Pagans to do tarot readings... kind of a classic double standard if you would.

Let me qualify that last statement in that some may wish to debate its validity... I come from a long line of "evangelic" ministers, circuit preachers, and tent revivalist. I'm the black sheep of the family because I don't make my living bilking the public selling God. Instead, I use my knowledge to help protect the public from such cons and inspire them to stand on their own two feet. This makes me a rebel and an outcast. Try as I may, I simply haven't that much disrespect for folks and must take a more honorable approach in what I do. Granted, some of my associates in the magic world refuse to see it that way, but that's not my problem. I know what I do and I have a clear conscience about it.

Through my work as a Reader and metaphysically based minister, I've helped dozens, if not hundreds of people get off of drugs, booze, and other self-destructive paths. I've helped families heal old wounds, and guided many an angry young soul back "into the light" as it were, that they may do good for others -- a pay it forward kind of thing. In bringing my work in this field into the world of professional magic, I've also helped open the door for others that have beliefs, be it in the Divine or the paranormal, to know that it's ok to believe and just because you're part of the magician's world, you don't have to be a jerk, an atheist, or an "in your face" cynic. My relationship with some of the biggest names in the Skeptic's world has also helped soften their message to a significant degree, encouraging people to THINK rather than jump to conclusions or assume things "blindly".

In order for something to be a "rip off" it is a matter of personal perspective and experience. I for one would never invest the hundreds of dollars charged by so-called "successful magicians" for their marketing courses. I think it's a bold rip off and that they are being predatory. Especially when I, for far less money, can go to the source (Dale Carnegie)... yet, others will gladly cough up the cash because they too are magicians and they believe in investing in the promised pipe dream. Rarely do they consider the statistics and how the odds are against them, no matter what they try. It's a numbers game and a matter of knowing the right people and being in the right place at the right time, with the right attitude.

When it comes to the affectiveness of a Reading we find the same exact thing. Some of us find it a thing of value, some do not.

I recently had a young man complaining about his mother not giving him money for clothes but she'll cough up $300.00 to send him to a noted psychic. She believes that the $300.00 Reader is better than any local $50.00 Reader because of experience and placebo factors; her own ego is blinding her but, to her there is value in what she is paying for. For her, it works! That does not mean that I support her decision. Frankly I can't see why anyone would willingly pay a counselor of any kind, that kind of cash. But we do have our Beverly Hills crowd that believes it must spend that kind of money for it to work...for it to have genuine value and be worth while. It's a matter of personal perspective and, as Ron Martin, Herb Dewey and others have pointed out in the past, some people need to spend more.

Well, I've rambled sufficiently and have hopefully shined a bit of light on this issue. Too, I hope and pray that we don't end up with a tit for tat debate in this thread. Seeking understanding of the issue is one thing, trying to cram one's point of view down everyone's throat is another.

Later!


Osiris!!

Absolute gem! thanx for sharing...except for the "white trash" reference...theres no such thing...simply poor people, but we'll leave that here for now...

Yes, with the ability to sway people "this" or "that" way, there is always the danger that the ego will want its share, and this is dangerous...when one see just how easy it is to "read" people, the desire for money and power many grow with it...then you have yet another tainted ego-trip...
their desire to be "read" makes the readers job half way done as soon as the sitter sits down...woe! unto desire...
Osiris
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Quote:
On 2005-05-10 10:59, Quinn wrote:
Another tangentially related question: When did it become okay to label everyone who has moral objections to deceptive psychic readings as "cynics"?


Since THEY saw fit to label anyone that does Readings as being cons and rip off artists.
entity
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The "Moral Objection" thing is subjective.

Fraud is illegal.


- entity
bobser
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On 2005-05-10 06:54, PK wrote:
The moral objection from cynics is that this is deception and is therefore morally wrong.

AND

However are the cynics justified in saying that such a deception is morally wrong?


I think PK you have to get several premises in order here.
1)Are you talking about fakes who simply and 'knowingly' make up things?
2)Are you talking about people who believe they are psychic while actually they are not?
3)Are you talking about what you would consider to be genuine psychics?

Because if you can do that then, and in my opinion 'only' then, does the debate possess any depth to it.

Bobser,
"sleep easy and look out for falling trees" (From Goopopo, Ethiopian friend)
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
PK
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Quote:
On 2005-05-10 12:17, bobser wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-05-10 06:54, PK wrote:
The moral objection from cynics is that this is deception and is therefore morally wrong.

AND

However are the cynics justified in saying that such a deception is morally wrong?


I think PK you have to get several premises in order here.
1)Are you talking about fakes who simply and 'knowingly' make up things?
2)Are you talking about people who believe they are psychic while actually they are not?
3)Are you talking about what you would consider to be genuine psychics?

Because if you can do that then, and in my opinion 'only' then, does the debate possess any depth to it.

Bobser,
"sleep easy and look out for falling trees" (From Goopopo, Ethiopian friend)


I promise that I do not mean this to sound rude or flippant.

But did you read my posts?

If so I do not see why you are asking what my premise is. It is very clearly defined.

PK
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