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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Is, being a Magician Lying. » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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paulmagic
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Quote:
On 2005-05-25 12:20, Clifford the Red wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-05-25 01:18, paulmagic wrote:
Thanks for your post Clifford. I find that I really want to do what is right but sometimes even the simplest matters ends up so "complicated" I want to live by grace but if I am not careful, too much qualifications, rules, guidelnes for the guidlines etc seems to tie me in knots.


So, is being tied up in knots and complications, that prevent us from doing good in the world, following the right spirit?


Not sure how to answer that! Smile I guess I might have to rconsider rope magic! lol
Many Blessings!!

Paul
majura
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Jesus "lied" on the Emmaes road-- when He "withheld" his identity and "pretended" to not know the sad news.
Legalism binds us-- Christ sets us free-- what is important is the intent of our hearts and only God knows that.
Leland Stone
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Majura:

Your claim that Jesus lied on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13) is explicitly contradicted by Scripture. Jesus was not only described as full of truth (John 1:14), but He described Himself as being Truth (John 14:6). Further, Numbers 23:19 clearly states that God does not lie.

It is correct that "whom the Son sets free shall be free indeed," but the source of this freedom is knowledge of the truth. Christian liberty is not a license to lie (or engage in whatever other behaviour), while supposing that so long as one's motive is correct then the behaviour is somehow irrelevant.

Hiya, Clifford:

I'm not sure I understand your making light of the ethical concern Christians have about whether Magic is lying.

Quote:
On 2005-05-25 00:04, Clifford the Red wrote:
You guys crack me up. Some people just love to feel guilty about something.

Instead of worrying about if magic is technically lying, it is far more important to assure that your magic isn't boring or pathetic. I think entertaining with this art and giving the gift of a message is service and of importance. If you are going to serve - Be Excellent.

After all, you and I recently had a vigorous discussion
(here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&50) regarding the definition and ethics of stealing. Since lying and stealing are hairs on the same dog, they are -- to me -- equally worthy of ethical consideration. Do you see them as otherwise?

Leland
Clifford the Red
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Leland,

I don't consider magic to be "lying" anymore than the Parables of Jesus. Jesus was full of truth and yet he told stories that were complete fabrications as illustrations. Sounds remarkably like what this type of magic is all about.

Discussions about truth are more philosophical in nature than absolute. To argue that it is untrue that the coin is in my left hand seems obtuse, because all your senses have perceived it to be in my left hand. And I could demonstrate all day that it is, from your perspective. If I state the coin is in my left hand, I am merely stating your truth as you perceive it. My perspective is different. I do not perceive the coin in my left hand because I am using different senses. But philosophically we could argue endlessly about if the coin even exists at all. None of the arguments amount to a hill of beans in regards to our life.

Is Jesus lying to us in Mark 6:23 "And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass." because grass really isn't green at all, even though we perceive it to be?


Quote:
On 2005-05-26 11:33, blazes816 wrote:
Possibly. but is lying to make people happy bad?


Wow, that's another philosophical discussion!!

I could give you endless examples on both sides.

Is it bad to lie to your wife and say she looks fantastic, when she doesn't quite measure up? This makes your wife happy. Are you not expressing love through lying?

Is it bad to lie about the Jewish people as the Nazi's did? This made the Germans happy. Are you not expressing hate through lying?

Even the best of humans don't operate as absolutely truthful beings.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
blazes816
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Yea but magic doesn't hurt people
Clifford the Red
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That wasn't your question.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-05-26 14:43, blazes816 wrote:
Yea but magic doesn't hurt people


Tell that to the followers of Jim jones
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Leland Stone
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Quote:
On 2005-05-26 13:56, Clifford the Red wrote:
Leland,

I don't consider magic to be "lying" anymore than the Parables of Jesus. Jesus was full of truth and yet he told stories that were complete fabrications as illustrations. Sounds remarkably like what this type of magic is all about.



Good point. With the exception of the Rich Man and Lazarus (which, unlike the other parables names actual participants, and appears to describe actual persons and events), the Parables were presented as fabrications. For me, this raises the questions, "Is storytelling lying?" and, "As others have posted, does intent/motive mitigate such lying?"

Payne mentioned Jim Jones, I've mentioned George Lucas; both these guys lied to their 'followers,' but for very different reasons. While I have yet to work through this matter philosophically, my hunch is that certain lies (jokes, stories, Magic) may be mitigated by context and intent, while certain other lies (perjury, false allegations) may not.

Nevertheless, the nature of the thing in question appears unchanged: What is not true is false, or a lie.

Quote:
Discussions about truth are more philosophical in nature than absolute. To argue that it is untrue that the coin is in my left hand seems obtuse, because all your senses have perceived it to be in my left hand. And I could demonstrate all day that it is, from your perspective. If I state the coin is in my left hand, I am merely stating your truth as you perceive it. My perspective is different. I do not perceive the coin in my left hand because I am using different senses. But philosophically we could argue endlessly about if the coin even exists at all. None of the arguments amount to a hill of beans in regards to our life.


Subjectivism is an untenable logical position, and this affirmation self-stultifies, or refutes itself.

Quote:

Is Jesus lying to us in Mark 6:23 "And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass." because grass really isn't green at all, even though we perceive it to be?


Well, neither is solid matter solid, nor does the Sun rise in the East, nor did God actually require information when He sought Adam in the Garden, saying "Where are you?" A phenomenological convention used for our convenience could hardly be called a lie; even today, all newscasts which report such things speak of "sunset," despite Galileo's findings about the heliocentricity of our solar system.

I appreciate your point regarding how humans vary in their truthfulness. Yet even with this flexibility, something (the Imago Dei or an evolutionary code or some other impulse, depending upon one's view) appears to motivate us at times to seek truth. It is an ironic pleasure to discuss this search for truth in a place devoted to deception!

Leland
Clifford the Red
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Quote:

Subjectivism is an untenable logical position, and this affirmation self-stultifies, or refutes itself.



The real irony is your rejecting the subjective experience in a Christian Forum, let alone in a search for truth! Truth is a subjective experience. If you want to search for facts, that is another animal.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Leland Stone
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No, I'm only rejecting subjectivism, as you have done.

Quote:
On 2005-05-27 15:25, Clifford the Red wrote:
Truth is a subjective experience.


Although your statement refutes itself (if the proposition is true, it proves itself false), it claims an objective truth, thus denying subjectivism.

That is, if this thing called "truth" is categorically described as a subjective experience, then you have just affirmed an objective reality about that "truth": Truth is exclusively an experience, subject to individual perceptions. (Unfortunately, anyone claiming this objectivity for "truth" then denies the category, thus the self-refutation of the proposition.)

I affirm subjective experiences -- you and I might try the same food or watch the same movie and form vastly different opinions thereof. But subjectivism (or relativism) remains logically untenable.

Leland
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