And that's the way it should be. But going back to the original post --


This is not necessarily true. The profit on a $10.00 knockoff will not be greater than the profit on a $35.00 original. The unscrupulous dealer may sell a few more of the knockoff, but it is actually doubtful. If they don't work, he may end up "eating" some defective merchandise. Take Penguin, for example. They operate on a very thin margin. And like them or not, they will take back defective merchandise.

You only have to take back a certain amount before you realize which tricks bark.

I can'at think of ANYONE who needs the ego-stroking of having their stuff published.
It's simply a matter of returning a favor that was given to them by the likes of John Mulholland, Bruce Elliott, Tony Slydini, Dai Vernon, and many, many others in the books and writings of the past.

But, to address the initial question, how would most people know today which dealer peddles knock-offs? There are so many "new" tricks coming out so fast that it is all but impossible to keep up.

And, to take the Martin Nash example one step further, having charged $100 and demanded a year's silence on the crimp, assuming that everyone kept quiet about the crimp, how did some of them feel when -- at the end of the year -- what they had paid $100 for was made available to the general body of magicians?

Because that's what has to happen, if the originator is going to make a buck on his creation.

And that's why I -- and many more like me -- freely give away what we create.

Knowledge is power, but we're not "power freaks".

Actually, there are some who do need the ego boost of seeing their stuff published. If this weren't true, why are there so many blogs now? I've visited many of them, and found a certain sameness to them. Basically, they seem to be little magicians who have little gripes blowing them out of proportion.

There are others who actually manage to earn a living between performing, lecturing and selling their wares. Jim Pace comes to mind. Also Mark Mason. These fellows have magic marketing down to a science.

Guys like John Cornelius are a rarity. Never go to the hardware store with John. He will create at least four tricks before he gets to the department he came to visit and another two or three on the way to the cash register. Out of those, one may actually be practical. He has one of those, "I wonder what I could do if I ..." kinds of mentality. That, coupled with an incredibly practical ability to solve problems has made him one of the most creative minds in the business. While he doesn't do it for his ego, he does feel crushed and dismayed when he sees someone kidnaping one of his "children."

But how do we know who the dealers are who sell the knockoffs? We read the Café. We read the letters to the editors in magic magazines. We check with our friends.

Concerning the Martin Nash example, he gave them a year. They did know what to expect. And you can't expect someone to sit on that kind of thing forever.

I think you guys missed the point of the Nash example. I was trying to show that some people DO know the value of secrets and those who do usually get way more than they asked for...

People were asked to keep it secret for ONE year. There was no expectation that it would remain underground for more than that. It remained exclusive for five years. Martin then taught it only in his private seminars, along with the real work on the tabled faro.

I don't know how many years it was before it was taught on video.

I understood it perfectly. There are a lot of things that have been sold like that. The Cézanne Code required a non-disclosure agreement. But there are no plans at all to release it to the general magic public even after all the copies are sold out.

I don't think I would have been disappointed at all with the arrangement.

The folks I used to discuss stuff with have kept secrets for twenty years. I sent them, and a few new "club" members some notes today on the latest material.

While not exactly a commercial venture, new things are easier to explore when there are others available to discuss and seek advice.

There is a common thread with all of these discussions about ethics. It all boils down to one thing. If you feel like you are cheating someone when you sell or reveal a method, or when you do a line or when you use a bit of business, you probably are.

Your conscience will generally tell you what is right.

I have known one or two people who did not have any kind of a conscience at all, though. It's rare, but it happens.

Or, to put Bill's very valid point another way:

If you have to ask if it's wrong, it probably is.

Or just ask the person who is doing using the line, bit of business, effect, assuming you have some assurance that it is his or hers in the first place.

I was gently chided over this when I asked a magician, here, if I could use some other magician's "bit of business" that I learned watching his lecture. "Just PM him," he said.

Duhh. I should have thought of that. Sometimes we just forget the obvious.

You mean like the sixteen items you have for sale on the site in your signature line?

Peter gives away a whole lot more than he sells.

What have you created?

HMMMM?

A couple of manuscripts. But how is that relevant? He is holding himself up as superior based on giving things away...but his whole site is sales, nothing for free. I think he is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

Even the free stuff....is it? You still have to purchase the magazines they were published in. That costs money.

I don't think Peter is holding himself up as being superior. You are reading things into his posts that aren't there. His giving is private. There are things that Peter gives away that you don't know about.

Since it's not my place to invite you to some of the groups that Peter regularly shares his knowledge with, I won't. But a lot more giving of material gets done on this forum than you are aware of.

I do know that Peter has given many people his version of Scotch and Soda which is done without any gaffs. It's based loosely on my version, which I have given away to at least 2 dozen people here.

I give things away. I sell things. And as far as the cost of the magazines his column is in, well, if you are a member of IBM you don't pay anything extra for them.

Basically, you are flaming Peter, when you have no reason to.

IBM has membership dues. If you cannot afford the whole membership, you can opt out of receiving the magazine. Either way, it isn't free.

I am not "flaming" Peter. I think he is trying to have his cake and eat it to. It all depends upon the thread.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=4128987

Peter says: I can'at think of ANYONE who needs the ego-stroking of having their stuff published.

But when confronted here
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=4092909
with the fact that Marlo published "Peter's" card to wallet routine first he replied: Actually, 1981 -- the date of Marlo's publication -- IS 15 years after my first use of the DB in that sense.
I first PUBLISHED it in 1985.
And, although I doubt it happened in this case, and certainly not from me, Ed Marlo had a reputation for "amazingly discovering, in his own name, tricks and moves that had been around for years."

Arguing about who did something first....isn't that the very ego-stoking that Peter was decrying?

And if that particular routine is in dispute about authorship, what right does Peter have to "give it away"?

As far as me misinterpeting his holding himself up above others, feel free to peruse the thread about color changing knives wherein Peter openly states than anyone who doesn't give work away for free isn't entitled to an opinion.

Why don't you check it, yourself. You may be surprised.

Check out the Color Changing Knives thread?

I just did. About a page and a half have been deleted. Which is probably for the best. The conversation in there was getting a little heated. Not very constructive at all.

When I first got interested in magic over two years ago I bought the tricks that were cheap. At the time I din't realize that they were inferior knock-offs. Now I try to buy the best constructed magic by the original. I am not a fan of the magic made in India or China. Remember the old saying "You get what you pay for."