|
|
Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
The reason magic dealers carry knock offs or stop selling the original version of a trick is that the knock offs are cheaper and the profits higher.
Dealers who create their own knock offs are less worthy of your money than those who are simply ignorant of their offense. But if you wish to be considered a member of the fraternity of magicians you have a responsibility to do your best ethically none the less. Legally you can do whatever you want to do. But your choices come at a cost to you that isn’t always apparent. If you give your money to dealers who are known to rip off original creators, or if you buy "instant downloads" or other publications filled with variations which are as minor as changing the name of the trick and using Kings instead of Aces then you have made your choices known and will be treated accordingly by those whom you would like to call peers. You can get your magical knowledge from “cheap” sources or you can respect the craft, read the old hard-to-read books, and treat your magic as something more than just a hobby like collecting “Magic the Gathering” cards. It’s harder, and “costs” more in terms of time and cash. But there are benefits which aren’t always apparent. There is a level of magical knowledge that doesn’t get into print often but is shared amongst those who have respect for the craft and for original thinkers. There are bits of finesse and methods which allow you to fool not only lay audiences but also the people who think they are magicians because they have everything available from one or more of those “instant magician” websites. It’s interesting to see your friends on TV or on a magic video doing a trick they taught you, only to see that “something” is missing from what they’re sharing for the camera. To give you an idea what sort of material I’m talking about consider that Dingle’s “Roll Over Aces” was well known among some magicians for quite awhile before it got out, and Jon Townsend’s original fingertip coins across has yet to see print. Some of the great stuff from John Bannon’s new book “Dear Mister Fantasy” has been shared, but not publicly. The double lift in the big book of Dingle's material was created for the book. The lift that Dingle actually used was someone else's and so Dingle never did it front of other magicians in respect of the owners wish to keep it secret. This stuff used to be called “inner circle” knowledge. A lot of it still remains hidden from the general magic public. You don’t get it by collecting secrets at the lowest cost; you get it by paying your dues and knowing how to respect secrets and the people who create them. Max Maven once wrote that perhaps 1% of the people in magic created for the other 99%. I think that’s probably true. If you are part of that 1% and people support those who rip you off what motivation do you have to share what you create? That’s why you should avoid those sorts of dealers as best you can. How do you do that? That’s easy. Use the Magic Café. Read the message boards and buy from respected “good guys” like Denny Haney, or Joe Porper, or Stevens Magic. If the dealers who behave badly see a dip in sales the month they release something that’s ethically questionable they’ll learn what shouldn’t be done just because it’s “legal” to do it. I have gone so far as to tell a dealer that they won't be getting any more of my business _this_year_ and that I'll consider returning as a customer after Christmas, if things improve. Buying from a magic dealer who fails to honor the creator of an effect doesn’t make you a bad person, or a criminal. But I think it’s important to remember that the laws of a society represent the bare minimum of ethical behavior. We all can, and should, do better than just what keeps us out of court. But that’s just one man’s opinion. You are, of course, free to do as you see fit. And now you can do so with a better idea of what it really costs you. Be well. |
|||||||||
trevcmagicman New user 52 Posts |
WOW! That was a very in-depth opinion. I agree with you to the fullest extent. The actual creator of the trick should get the money from their creation not some other guy who knocked it off. And sometimes the orginal ones are the best ones. (I have experienced this personally.)
The magic of Trevor Crandall and Luke Vlassis. The magic men of Nipomo, California.
|
|||||||||
wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Thanks Trevor. And sometimes the original isn't the best. But what often happens is that someone creates an "easier" method, which people who don't understand the effect fully think is "better" and that method becomes well known. Then someone who's reasonably talented fixes what was broken in the popular version of the effect and in doing so recreates the original method, of which they are ignorant, and in so doing becomes an "accidental" thief.
This happend to me early on in my magical developement when I had the brilliant idea to improve Color Monte by getting rid of the silly looking cards and using real ones. Turns out that's called "Three Card Monkey Business" and it's the trick that inspired Color Monte. Ah well, you do the best you can and acknowlege your mistakes. Mea Culpa. |
|||||||||
calexa Inner circle Germany 1635 Posts |
Thanks for that in-depth opinion.
Magixx
Optimists have more fun.....
|
|||||||||
njh Regular user Baltimore, MD 143 Posts |
You make some good points. And I agree with you about the ethical problems posed by knock off effects. But why should magic be more expensive, inacessible, and difficult than it has to be?
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson |
|||||||||
Scott Cram Inner circle 2678 Posts |
Being aware of rip-offs can also require a good knowledge of history, as even the so-called "good guys" can be tripped up in this case.
There's at least one case in magic (I'm trying not to name names here), where a well-known magician put out an original routine (requiring gimmicks), and another well-known magician made minor changes to the routine, put out his version (using the same gimmicks), didn't give any credit to the original, and this knock-off not only outsold the original version, but remains one of the best-selling tricks in magic to this day. To add insult to injury, when another magic company put out the classic version of the routine, with the approval and endorsement of the true, original creator (unlike the version marketed by the big name), the makers of this newer version were bad-mouthed everywhere as knock-off artists! |
|||||||||
wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-23 09:05, njh wrote: Well that really cuts to the heart of the matter doesn't it? Everything is more difficult that it "has to be". You could simply go through life stealing everything you want, ignoring the opinions of everyone who disagrees with you, and basically doing what ever the heck you want. That would be easy. Who ever said that life was, or should be, easy? If someone told you that it was probably because they wanted to sell you something. That's a big lie that adverstisers tell us to get us to buy their crap. When posessions are cheap and easy to aquire it becomes about GETTING them instead of HAVING them. We all know people who are less interested in the music they download for free than in the fact that they have 3Gigs worth of audio in their iPods. It has ceased to be about the art and turned into a game of "how much". Which is sad, because some of the music is actually worth hearing… But my post really wasn’t about why so much as it was about making sure people made informed choices. |
|||||||||
Randy Loyal user Rochester, NY 262 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-23 09:05, njh wrote: Why should magic be less expensive, more accessible and easier than it is supposed to be?
The Buffalo Get-Together - A Close-Up Magic Convention
|
|||||||||
KidCrenshaw Special user USA 537 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-23 13:28, Randy wrote: Good point, Randy. Also, answer yourself this question, and you'll have answered yourself: Why does a Ferrari cost more than a Mustang? They're both sports cars aren't they?
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
|
|||||||||
Patrick Differ Inner circle 1540 Posts |
Yesteryear.
I bought a copy of 3Fly when it was published. It came highly regarded and recommended at the magic shop where I bought it. I read it and thought "Wow! This stuff is cutting-edge solid!" I'm really gonna have to work on this." The last sentence of the pamphlet gave inspirational credit to Jonathan Townsend. I said to myself, "I wonder who this Jonathan Townsend guy is? His work is solid." Jump to today. I know a little bit more about 3Fly than when I bought the pamphlet years ago. I know a little more about Jonathan Townsend than I did years ago. I know a little more about what 3Fly REALLY IS thanks to honest people. I know that I, too, was duped into buying material that really had no business being sold. A lot of us were... Good advertisers and promoters have the ability to make us feel that, not only do we want their product, we NEED their product. We need air to breathe, we need food to sustain ourselves, and we need clothing and shelter to protect our fragile bodies from the elements...and we also need their product! Good advertisers and promoters capitalize on the perception of need. "Your life is in the toilet, but it won't be if you get this... Your life always has been and always will be NOTHING...unless you buy our product!" Take a closer look and listen at all the ads you see and hear and you'll agree that they all are communicating this very idea. All good ads do. That's the business, bud. Cheap magic knock-off artists are playing the same game. "I will give you what you NEED, and you will pay me. And you will pay me, instead of someone else (more deserving) because my price is better." OK, the quality may not be as good, but once you (own) it, you can make your own! Right? Right! Right? DON'T BUY KNOCKED-OFF MAGIC EFFECTS. If you really really really REALLY NEED it to make your life complete...I honestly suggest you re-evaluate your life. And do it now. Today, and tomorrow, that pamphlet sits on a shelf in my study and that shelf is called "stuff that can really really wait." It waits and so do I. I have the time. And besides, right now...I really really REALLY NEED to go buy groceries.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there. Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair -can ne'er come down again. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts |
So often, the knockoff is seriously worse than the original. One fellow I have a lot of admiration for is George Robinson. Almost all of his catalog has been knocked off by "you know who." But the funny part is that the stuff from "you know who" doesn't work as well. The gaff falls out of the "Vanishing Lifesavors" (sic), and there are other problems as well. So the dealers who carry these knockoffs lose twice. They lose when they buy the junk. Then they lose when their customers don't come back.
I got snagged by a knockoff. I was at the Lone Star Magic Auction, and a thin model card box came up for auction. The auctioneer mistook it for the one George had made and said, "Here's one from a friend of mine down in McAllen." So I purchased it, and found out it was the knockoff. I should have looked at it up close first. I didn't. It goes on my "wall of shame." I'm expecting to have some great news for you guys who really hate the knockoffs as much as I do in just a few days.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-23 09:05, njh wrote: As Tom Hanks says in A League of Their Own (and also said elsewhere in this forum) "Too hard, too hard, its supposed to be hard, if it wasn't hard everyone would be doing it, its the hard that makes it great" Also check out http://www.magicunlimited.com/magic_fakers.htm |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts |
The funny part about all of this "difficulty" thing is that very little in magic is really all that difficult if you will take the time to practice it. There are some flourishes that are real knuckle-busters, but a person with average dexterity can learn to do some very good magic if he will just sit down and learn it.
And when you do learn a knuckle-buster, you have something that the guy who bought the knockoffs can't do. Let me give you an example. I saw Lou Derman perform his comedy close-up at a TAOM convention. He started off with a one-handed shuffle. He then commented, "I do that just to show the guys at the castle that I can do something besides just being funny." Then he did his show. So I learned how to do a one-handed shuffle. It wasn't easy. It took me a couple of months of dedicated practice. But I learned it. And I can peg it every time. If I let it lie dormant for a month or two, I have to do a couple of warmups to make it smooth. But it's MINE!!!!! And that is one of the things you can do with magic. Set a goal and then accomplish it!
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
Fortunately for me I live about 15 miles away from Denny's shop in Maryland and Denny is serious about what he will and won't sell in his shop. Actually it's one of the best shops of any sort I've ever been in.
You can roam the entire shop freely, Denny (or his staff) are more than glad to talk shop with you or assist you with anything On a few occasions I've asked Denny to recommend something for me and he always has come up with something good In fact he's turned me on to me some of his best bits including the Malini egg bag and Multiplying Bottles.
Unique, Thought Provoking & Amazing Magical Entertainment Experiences
Illusions By Vick Blog of a real world working magician Magic would be great, if not for magicians |
|||||||||
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Wsduncan writes: "If . . . people support those who rip you off what motivation do you have to share what you create?"
Proably the motivation of giving something back to magic and to those who come after me. Sure, some people are going to rip me off; some people are going to rip anyone off who gives away his or her work. That's life and we'll live with it. There are a large number of people who write columns in the Linking Ring and MUM magazines besides me -- Tom Craven, Hugh Turley, Tony Econ, the late Gene Poinc, Hugh Riser, my aplogies to any I've forgotten but it's early and I'm not fully awake yet -- who give away quite freely their original work and get nothing material back for it. But we do it because we can and because we want to. If more people in magic -- and in the whole world -- were a little more giving and a little less grasping, it would be a much better place. |
|||||||||
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27369 Posts |
Re: "If more people in magic -- and in the whole world -- were a little more giving and a little less grasping, it would be a much better place. "
I happen to agree, and have given much of my work out for publication. However, I do retain the right to choose what of my work goes out. I am not pleased to see material I wish to remain private taken into circulation and then into print. As long as we have people eager to see or discuss somebody else's unpublished material, we are going to have serious problems in magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts |
That's a good point, Jonathan.
The copying of print material is also prevalent. Let me relate a bit to the group. The late Bob Blau was a very close friend of mine. I edited (read that "wrote") two books for him. I asked for no compensation, and in return, Bob sent me a pair of leather bound editions of them, which I treasure. A well-known "international columnist" from Portugal published an interview with Bob. This went onto his web site and was also published on the Texas Association of Magicians web site as well. At the end of the article, there was a note "Copyright 2001 by T___ B_____. However, you may reprint this, if you ask nicely." As I read the article, I realized it looked very familiar to me. Then I realized where it had come from. About 2/3 of it had been lifted directly from Bob's books. Needless to say, I was not a happy camper. There was no mention anywhere in the article that Bob had given him permission to quote the books. I called T___ B____'s hand on it, and he acted like he was the injured party. I told him that all I wanted him to do was to mention that parts of the article were taken from Bob's books. I didn't even want credit as the author. I just wanted him to do the right thing. He still hasn't. He probably never will.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Jonathan Townsend writes: "I happen to agree (with your post), and have given much of my work out for publication.
However, I do retain the right to choose what of my work goes out. I am not pleased to see material I wish to remain private taken into circulation and then into print." Nothing wrong with that and I respect your stand totally. I do the same thing myself with some selected pieces of my work. I should have included that disclaimer when I wrote my original post. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24321 Posts |
One of the real tragedies of this whole knockoff problem is the stuff that will never get to market. John Cornelius spent 2 years and a couple of thousand dollars researching the materials for his "Bendable Bic." I was there when it happened. I shot the photos for the instructions. In fact, I have the first one of these he made. He told me that he expected to have two years of clear sales before it got knocked off. It took six months. So he has been reluctant to release anything else.
He had a demonstration of PK that was really wonderful. It was the most natural thing you ever saw. I can't say any more about it than this, because I'm sworn to secrecy. But it never got marketed. I'm glad, because I know what it is. But the knockoff merchants don't, and they never will.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
wsduncan Inner circle Seattle, WA 3619 Posts |
Thanks Bill. Your example is exactly what I'm talking about.
Some folks, like JC don't need the ego satisfaction of publishing their stuff. I mean after you've won FISM twice someone telling you how great your new card trick is probably doesn't get you all that excited. And if the community doesn't support your efforts to make a buck off of your stuff and buys the cheaper versions you might as well not bother. Or sell it person to person and keep it underground. I don't think the folks who support the knock off dealers realize what they're missing out on. Martin Nash developed the best crimp in the business and sold it to a select few for $100.00. That's right. $100.00 to be shown how to crimp a card. He made everyone who he taught it do promise not to show it publicly for a year. Not a single person did. You can't imagine how badly it hurt people who didn't know about it when you borrowed their pack, put the work in right in front of them and then did work so clean they couldn't tell how you were controlling the cards. Laymen, of course, just saw impeccability clean card magic. Instead of one year later it was five years before Martin published it and taught it during his lecture tours. Even though the people he sold it to were only honor bound for one year not a single one of them tipped it in print or on video until after Martin had. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » The hidden cost of cheap "knock off" effects (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |