The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Religion and Bizarre Magic your opinion (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
froggyman
View Profile
New user
44 Posts

Profile of froggyman
I enjoy Bizarre magic. I love to watch the old horror movies. My problem is That I am a christian who attends church every sunday. Teaches Sunday School etc... Do you feel it is against the Christian way of living to do Effects about severed heads, Burried alive etc... This is something I have been struggling with for a number of years.
Froggy
Jaz
View Profile
Inner circle
NJ, U.S.
6112 Posts

Profile of Jaz
Bizarre magic doesn't have to be about horror. It's more about storytelling with a bit of magic thrown in.
The story can be send a biblical message, be about strange coincidences, ancient myths or other subjects.

Severed, and shrunken, heads has a real history.
Being buried alive should be OK with the right story behind it.

Try to add a Christian message to the stories.

Read "The good news" topics here at the Café'.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24264 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Quote:
On 2005-05-31 14:58, froggyman wrote:
I enjoy Bizarre magic. I love to watch the old horror movies. My problem is That I am a christian who attends church every sunday. Teaches Sunday School etc... Do you feel it is against the Christian way of living to do Effects about severed heads, Burried alive etc... This is something I have been struggling with for a number of years.
Froggy


Let me suggest that you familiarize yourself with the breadth and depth of the literature before you lump all of it in with severed heads, buried alive, etc. If you have been struggling with this for a number of years, it seems to me that you haven't been struggling in the right direction.

Ritual magic and horror magic are just two of the rooms in the mansion of story magic. Get some of the good literature on the subject and take a different twist on it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Al Angello
View Profile
Eternal Order
Collegeville, Pa. USA
11047 Posts

Profile of Al Angello
I did a juggling job at a church once, the minister took me aside and told me that they loved jugglers, but "we don't believe in magic, it is the work of the devil so please don't do any here".
There are people in this world that derive pleasure from wipeing the smile off your face, and in my opinion they deserve to be offended. Some church's have changed "Holloween" to "a creation celebration" are you willing to go that far?
My agnostic opinion
Al
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com
http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1794 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On 2005-05-31 19:18, juggleral wrote:

There are people in this world that derive pleasure from wipeing the smile off your face, and in my opinion they deserve to be offended.
Al

But then do those who derive pleasure from offending deserve to have the smile wiped off their face? Smile

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
mormonyoyoman
View Profile
Inner circle
I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only
2439 Posts

Profile of mormonyoyoman
Quote:
On 2005-05-31 18:57, Bill Palmer wrote:

Ritual magic and horror magic are just two of the rooms in the mansion of story magic. Get some of the good literature on the subject and take a different twist on it.



Would you recommend some of the good literature? I've sorta got a hankering to set some magic to a Dr Seuss story - which may or may not be off-topic.

*jeep!
--Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
kregg
View Profile
Inner circle
1958 Posts

Profile of kregg
If an audience takes offense by what you do, market you wares to a different audience or choose a different venue.
We've all had audience member's who shudder at the sight of a pentagram (out of ignorance thanks to Hollywood), who are petrified when they see a dove outside a cage, there are those who associate a card trick with "sinful gambling" or general magic as the devils work.
Faith is not unshakable, perhaps for some, the fear of loosing faith is their built-in V-Chip.
POOF!
ufo
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
1185 Posts

Profile of ufo
The essence of "bizarre" magic is to wrap the trick around a story that has the power to engage the full imaginations of the audience and let the trick underscore the meaning of the story. The goal being that the magic registers with meaning and memory for the audience as opposed to "30 seconds of eye candy." Seems to me that Gospel magicians would really be all over this approach. The more legitimate meaning you have to communicate, the stronger the magic should play.

P.S. And as to the "smile-wipers" mentioned in the previous post; lets all say it together; mean-spirited, small-minded, imagination-less, rock-headed mean people are unsuitable for representing God to anyone. So there.
"What's your drug?" she asked. "Hope" he said, "The most addicting one of all."
Clifford the Red
View Profile
Inner circle
LA, California
1933 Posts

Profile of Clifford the Red
Bizarre Magic is definitely an artful approach to magic. Like art, it intends to convey meaning and emotion and does it through story-telling. I much prefer this over the commerical version of magic which is often narrated with "Now I'm going to do this..." Bizarrists really concentrate on controlling every aspect of the performance - the props - (physical look, tactile feel, authenticity, smell, age, etc) the effect, the timing , the mood, the narration, the delivery, even available scents can enhance the effect and make it a much more vivid experience. Combined with a story that grabs and elicits emotion, you have an extremely engaging effect. It is interactive theatre at it's best and most powerful, because you engage people personally and impart knowledge and emotion with your art.

Quote:


On 2005-06-01 00:02, mormonyoyoman wrote:

Would you recommend some of the good literature? I've sorta got a hankering to set some magic to a Dr Seuss story - which may or may not be off-topic.

*jeep!
--Chet






I think you could make a delightful piece reciting a well-known poem from childhood. You could even make it suitable for adult audiences by playing with their nostalgia. You could even make a spectacle of the absurd by combining a recitation with some manipulation act (think Green Eggs & Ham combined with card production) - that could be funny! It all comes down to matching magic effects to a narration. Get out yer Seuss books and start reading for ideas. That may finally be a suitable use for those horrid magician flowers you pull out of your sleeve, very Seuss.

As far as the lit, I love Eugene Burger's material, he has a deep understanding of presentation, Punx is delightful, Bob Neale, Jeff McBride has some great stagework, lots of great examples.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
drkptrs1975
View Profile
Elite user
North Eastern PA
452 Posts

Profile of drkptrs1975
In on itself, no.
tbaer
View Profile
Inner circle
Pennsylvania
1953 Posts

Profile of tbaer
Froggyman, if your spiritually struggling with it than maybe you shouldn't do it to be on the safe side. I can only speak for myself, but in my own personal spiritual life, if I don't have a good feeling about something or I have mixed feelings about something, I tend not to do it.
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1794 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Froggy - my advice to you is found in a couple of verses. Check out Romans 14:23 and Philippians 4:8. I think that these may be helpful as you think it all through.

I perform mentalism, but the context of the performance is not one where I attempt to convince the audience that I have a special power. It is n fact geared to be a discerning look at those who claim such power.

It may be that you can work within a bizarre context and still bring glory to God. You just need to think it through as there have been many people who have claimed to do some interesting things in the name of God (from strippers to televangelists)!

I would love to hear a bizarre treatment that shares the Gospel from those who have posted here! Not saying that it can't be done, as I haven't given it any thought, but it seems like it might be a stretch!

I realize that you are not necessarily thinking about how to merge the Gospel with the bizarre, as you are just thinking through your relationship with it, but I still would like to see someone who believes that the two fit together come up with something that merges them!

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
weepinwil
View Profile
Inner circle
USA
3350 Posts

Profile of weepinwil
I quit doing magic in myc churches because of a few narrow minded, superstitous people who equate magic with evil. It is a decision we all must make.
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Clifford the Red
View Profile
Inner circle
LA, California
1933 Posts

Profile of Clifford the Red
Quote:
On 2005-06-01 22:59, Terry Holley wrote:

It may be that you can work within a bizarre context and still bring glory to God. You just need to think it through as there have been many people who have claimed to do some interesting things in the name of God (from strippers to televangelists)!

I would love to hear a bizarre treatment that shares the Gospel from those who have posted here! Not saying that it can't be done, as I haven't given it any thought, but it seems like it might be a stretch!

I realize that you are not necessarily thinking about how to merge the Gospel with the bizarre, as you are just thinking through your relationship with it, but I still would like to see someone who believes that the two fit together come up with something that merges them!


Well in light of your affinity for pointing out the evil of offending people, I am surprised that you feel so free in offending Bizarrists by equating them with strippers and acting incredulous at the thought that a Bizarre performance could be more meaningful than idiotic "patter". Maybe you had trouble reading or understanding the posts in English that explained the Bizarre approach. All you had to do was ask.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1794 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Quote:
On 2005-06-02 22:17, Clifford the Red wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-06-01 22:59, Terry Holley wrote:

It may be that you can work within a bizarre context and still bring glory to God. You just need to think it through as there have been many people who have claimed to do some interesting things in the name of God (from strippers to televangelists)!

I would love to hear a bizarre treatment that shares the Gospel from those who have posted here! Not saying that it can't be done, as I haven't given it any thought, but it seems like it might be a stretch!

I realize that you are not necessarily thinking about how to merge the Gospel with the bizarre, as you are just thinking through your relationship with it, but I still would like to see someone who believes that the two fit together come up with something that merges them!


Well in light of your affinity for pointing out the evil of offending people, I am surprised that you feel so free in offending Bizarrists by equating them with strippers and acting incredulous at the thought that a Bizarre performance could be more meaningful than idiotic "patter". Maybe you had trouble reading or understanding the posts in English that explained the Bizarre approach. All you had to do was ask.


Clifford:

I'm not sure how you came to these conclusions, as I did not equate Bizarrists with any other group. I simply stated that Froggy should think it through, as it is easy to rationalize much in the name of God.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is more than using it alongside profanity. It includes such thing as doing my own will and attempting to disguise it as God's will. I know because I have been guilty of it.

I must also take issue with your statement that I am "acting incredulous at the thought that a Bizarre performance could be more meaningful than idiotic 'patter'." I never mentioned anything about Bizarre performances and meaning or lack thereof.

You will also notice that I mentioned that it seems like it might be a stretch to share the Gospel through the Bizarre. My definition of the word "Gospel" comes from 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. I did not say that it might be a stretch to fit it in with a biblical illustration, but with the "Gospel" message of Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and risen.

I actually have performed a Bizarre effect that I created (based on published principles of others) using the Bible while "channeling" the biblical personage Moses. I created it for use during the heyday of channeling, and performed it to help people understand how easy it is to be deceived.

Although I do not consider myself that knowledgeable in the Bizarre, I do frequent the Bizarre thread here at the Magic Café and do some casual reading at times on the subject. I do believe that I have a feel for the genre, contrary to your statement about my not understanding it.

As I said, "I would love to hear a bizarre treatment that shares the Gospel from those who have posted here! Not saying that it can't be done, as I haven't given it any thought, but it seems like it might be a stretch!"

Maybe you can rise to the challenge, create a "Bizarre Gospel" routine, post it here, and let those who frequent this thread evaluate it.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
llsouder
View Profile
Regular user
114 Posts

Profile of llsouder
Quote:
On 2005-06-01 22:59, Terry Holley wrote:

I simply stated that Froggy should think it through, as it is easy to rationalize much in the name of God.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that "taking the Lord's name in vain" is more than using it alongside profanity. It includes such thing as doing my own will and attempting to disguise it as God's will. I know because I have been guilty of it.


Wow, isn't that the truth! I know this but I never realized it was "using the Lord's name in vain." Wow, good point and biblically backed up by the ten commandments!

And along this same lines: I reserve the weird magic for entertainment around the campfire. Church and sunday school shouldn't be entertainment(Dave Hunt's http://www.thebereancall.org is really rubbing off on me) Old fashion is good! rah rah organ music, hymns and the KJV (even though I use the NASB and NIV Smile )

I am always ready to present the Gospel message to a group using a torn and restored paper, but I hold back on other object lessons unless I know it will burn that message into their mind, because the real reason I am there is to educate the kiddies about Christ and why they should love Him and how to follow Him.

On the other hand, I must say that the bizzare type magic would serve this purpose well because it's always something people remember.

okay I am torn!
Clifford the Red
View Profile
Inner circle
LA, California
1933 Posts

Profile of Clifford the Red
Terry,

I did read your post and your inferences were quite clear, including your continued inference that Bizarre, or storytelling magic, is offensive to God. Your "challenge" to prove you wrong simply illustrates your predisposition to make judgement.

I reiterate my assertion of your obvious lack of understanding of Bizarre. I hardly think frequenting the Bizarre forum, or casual reading, constitutes any kind of feeling about the depth and breadth of Bizarre Magic. And you think a channeling exposure routine constitutes Bizarre. Yeesh. You have heard from several people who cared enough about the art to speak up, including a legend of Magic, Bill Palmer, that defining Bizarre as spooky or occult magic is absurd.

I have several Bizarre routines that would illustrate, but I am not in the business of giving away my artistic creativity and hard work, and I certainly don't need it "evaluated" by posters on a Forum. Here are some free ideas but someone else can do the work: A presentation could be as simple as illustrating a single beattitude or several, or a parable. There are wonderful themes in these that you could readily run with by writing a presentation and matching with some illustrative magical effects.

The idea is to create an artful presentation where the presentation is enhanced by magic, not just patter for a trick. The presentation can be developed to the point where it is very poignant and creates a vivid emotional response. The components of the presentation should be addressed at extreme detail. Does your scripting make sense? Have you used non-verbal cues to their greatest benefit? (silence, expression, touch, leaning, gestures, etc.) Have you defined your theme and the emotional response you are seeking? Is the mood congruent with the theme? Is your character congruent with the presentation? Have you fact-checked your script for accuracy? Are your props as authentic as possible? Is the prop aged properly? Is lighting or sound critical to your effect? Does the placement of the effect in your show create the best emotional journey? Have you vetted your effect with a director? Would the presentation be compelling and stand on it's own without any magic? Etcetera, etcetera.

Did you see any occult themes or severed heads there? Of course not. You create art that is appropriate for the market and themes you are targeting!
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Terry Holley
View Profile
Inner circle
1794 Posts

Profile of Terry Holley
Clifford:

I appreciate your input. I don't feel that Bizarre or storytelling magic is offensive to God. Some might be, but that is the case for all magic - even poor Gospel Magic might possibly be offensive to Him because of the lack of quality.

I posted the following on another magic discussion board after hearing of the death of Jay Marshall:

***************

Believe it or not, I met Jay at a Fellowship of Christian Magicians Convention at Winona Lake, Indiana, in the mid 1980's.

Our discussion took place one afternoon after he had the opportunity to view at least one of the evening shows that included various performers.

As we were talking about the week in general, he stated that he was impressd by the "family-feel" at the FCM Conference. But he then asked me a question that I have never forgotten.

His question went something like this. "If the message that the gospel magicians give is so important and if they believe it has eternal significance, why do so many wrap it in such a poor package?" Of course he was talking about the quality of the performance.

It hit me like a ton of bricks and it caused me to do some deep soul-searching regarding the quality of my presentation when performing that genre of magic.

I don't know what Jay thought about the gospel message, but he realized that if it was as important as many believe, it should be presented with excellence.

*************

Based on several of your comments in your last response, it doesn't seem that any further discussion on the topic will be profitable, so I won't attempt to carry it on any further.

I have opened another thread however in "The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre!" area of the Magic Café to get some input on the relationship between Bizarre and Gospel Magic from those who frequent that particular area.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......rum=14#0

You may want to check in to see how the discussion goes.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Clifford the Red
View Profile
Inner circle
LA, California
1933 Posts

Profile of Clifford the Red
Quote:
On 2005-06-03 22:00, Terry Holley wrote:
Clifford:

I appreciate your input. I don't feel that Bizarre or storytelling magic is offensive to God. Some might be, but that is the case for all magic - even poor Gospel Magic might possibly be offensive to Him because of the lack of quality.


I appreciate your clarification! I heartily agree with the last comment! If I have taken offense without cause, I apologize for my actions and terse response. Sometimes I read the subtleties of words as intentional (I am a writer and love subtleties) where they may just be words.
Quote:

I posted the following on another magic discussion board after hearing of the death of Jay Marshall:

***************

Believe it or not, I met Jay at a Fellowship of Christian Magicians Convention at Winona Lake, Indiana, in the mid 1980's.

Our discussion took place one afternoon after he had the opportunity to view at least one of the evening shows that included various performers.

As we were talking about the week in general, he stated that he was impressd by the "family-feel" at the FCM Conference. But he then asked me a question that I have never forgotten.

His question went something like this. "If the message that the gospel magicians give is so important and if they believe it has eternal significance, why do so many wrap it in such a poor package?" Of course he was talking about the quality of the performance.

It hit me like a ton of bricks and it caused me to do some deep soul-searching regarding the quality of my presentation when performing that genre of magic.

I don't know what Jay thought about the gospel message, but he realized that if it was as important as many believe, it should be presented with excellence.

*************


Excellent! You may be a Bizarrist and don't even realize it :O
Quote:

It does seem to me that you want to run away from the fact that Bizarre magic does include the "spooky or occult," although I would agree that those factors don't define it.


I don't see how explaining the breadth of performance themes constitutes "running away". Movies have different themes too, but I wouldn't deny there are spooky or occult ones there as well. My point was that your feeling that "it would be a stretch" seemed to root with your conceptions of what Bizarre is. But I am glad you appreciate my definition.

Bizarre is an approach to the art, not a theme. Perhaps that clarifies. I do recognize there exists the misconception, as even evidenced by the chose title of the Bizarre Forum! What can ya do.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
sinnead zenun
View Profile
Elite user
Mt. Makiling
408 Posts

Profile of sinnead zenun
For me bizarre and gospel is the same as well as different...
they are same for the category of story telling, making the magic more emotional,much more focus on the message and presentation...
the difference is the topic or the subject...

and I think that the problem in the term bizarre magick is the labeling... bizarre magick branches into many different types... and gospel is more focus on god's word...

terry you may want to check this website Smile regarding mixing bizarre and gospel...

because we disobeyed he wept by brother kotah
http://www.dragonskull.co.uk/extra_lecture16.htm

raindrops keep fallin on my head by de nomolos ( I really love this one)
http://www.dragonskull.co.uk/extra_lecture26.htm

to froggyman: yes, maybe its against the christian belief... let your conscience guide you... my advice is maybe you can do a routine regarding with this buried alive or horror movies... but in the end, show that the good prevails... that god protect us from evil...or something like that...
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Religion and Bizarre Magic your opinion (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.31 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL