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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Religion and Bizarre Magic your opinion (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Viano
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As a bazarrist, I can say with confidence that you can not find better advice than you have received here.

I often perform at church affairs. I am not a member of any of them and nobody has ever asked. When I am in their house, I treat them with respect and they return it.
I do not do hypnosis in churches and we don't use trances. Other than that, we pretty much do our regular show.

I have only faced " the curse of Moses" once and we agreed to disagree as gentlemen.

I suspect that you are sensitive enough to recognize what might be offensive to special audiences. My rule is that I don't want to alter their belief system, even if I disagree with it. They hire me to entertain, not to convert.

I recently watched Andre Kole perform at a state college that is generally very hostile to Christianity. He did a spectacular secular magic show and then had a brief intermission before doing some gospel magic. He announced what he was going to do after the intermission and said that the intermission would permit anyone who might be offended to leave quietly. A few left and the rest of the show was very memorable. He was there to tell his personal story. He did it with class and there were no problems.

I look for venues that fit my favorite show and I also modify shows to fit specific venues.

A dear friend recently told me that you should do magic to draw attention to yourself. You should attract people to your religeon by what is in your heart and how you live your life.

Rich
Jaz
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Quote:
Terry Holley wrote:
Maybe you can rise to the challenge, create a "Bizarre Gospel" routine, post it here, and let those who frequent this thread evaluate it.


The message of the discovery of the empty tomb, Jesus' appearing to Magdalene could be the formation of a nice routine.
A coin could be used depicting Jesus and an Okito Box for the tomb.
Another option might be to use a crucifix depicting Jesus and possbly a Rattle Box.
How about a statuette of Jesus an Production Screen or Squared Circle.
Terry Holley
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I apologize to any and all (especially Clifford) who were offended with anything I said previously, as it honestly was not my intent. Thank you Clifford for your words of reconciliation.

I also want to mention to Clifford that in an attempt to think through everything that I was posting so it wouldn't be offensive, I even edited out the line, "It does seem to me that you want to run away from the fact that Bizarre magic does include the 'spooky or occult,' although I would agree that those factors don't define it," in my original post of Jun 3, 2005 10:00pm.

After I posted that sentence, I came to the conclusion that the words could generate more heat than light, so I deleted it. It appears that you quoted and replied (in a most gracious manner by the way) somewhere in that time zone that allowed you to quote the original but yet allow me to edit it. For that reason the quote exists but the original statement does not. I hope that all makes sense. If you think I go to extremes in explanations, you should check out one I gave in the "Deceptive Side of Magic" thread a while back. In case you have too much time on your hands, here you go:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......4&17

Anyway...

Before any one points out to me what I stated in an earlier post ("It doesn't seem that any further discussion on the topic will be profitable, so I won't attempt to carry it on any further"), I would like to add something that deals with Froggy's initial comment and not the debate about what is or isn't Bizarre Magic (at least I hope this will be the case).

When I look at his question, I believe it really wasn't about a definition of Bizarre Magic, it was about working with the tension that he feels when he, as a Christian, interacts with the horror genre, whether that be films or that part of Bizarre Magic that leans that way (can you tell I'm trying to do my best here not to offend anyone?).

I believe that sometimes we can become a little too introspective when evaluating our spiritual walk, but I do think that he has raised a valid concern about how believers in Christ are to relate to any medium that carries a "dark side" to it.

As I understand it, this is part of the uproar in some Christian circles about the Harry Potter stories and involvement in Halloween.

Now my only question is, "Froggy, are you going to respond to any of this and let us know how the processing in your mind/heart is going?"

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Chessmann
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Some thoughts:

Know your audience - in this case, the pastor, deacons, etc... Make sure they know what kind of show that your are going to give, and discuss it.

You know, there are a lot of pastors who know nothing about magic, perhaps they have only seen it in one context. Therefore, that pastor is naturally going to be against magic in his church. After discussion, and perhaps a preview, sharing with him *exactly* the point - the role - that the bizarre effect is to have (in other words, it's *purpose*), he may get it and be on board. For others it is just too much outside their realm of experience, and they cannot accept it as something that can be terribly good.

Honor the pastor(s). Remember, they are serving God the best that they know how. They probably get broadsided by unthinking people all the time. Even if the pastor does not agree with a positive view of bizarre magic, at least behave in a way that will make him think about it, and associate bizarre magic in a more positive light than he once did. Then, maybe next time....

Mark
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-06-05 15:32, Terry Holley wrote:

I believe that sometimes we can become a little too introspective when evaluating our spiritual walk, but I do think that he has raised a valid concern about how believers in Christ are to relate to any medium that carries a "dark side" to it.



Hi Terry,

Being that we've sorted out our spirited discussions, why stop! Regarding this comment, everything has a "dark side" to it, either in the form of current practice or seedy history. I agree that the term Bizarre does carry with it some inherent associations, regardless of how it has evolved. Perhaps a solution is to take the lessons learned and, just as Bizarre created a subset of magic, you could create a subset of Gospel Magic, using the lessons of the art gleened from the Bizarre Movement. BTW, I did post a link to a great Bizarre Gospel routine in your other thread that came around in this forum. I think that effectively illustrates the use of Bizarre principles in a Gospel setting.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
ptbeast
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This has been an interesting discussion. Unfortunately, Froggyman has not
returned to share if the responses have adequately answered his question.

Froggyman, if you read this, I would advise you to study Romans chapter
14 very carefully. I think that the bottom line is that you must know
yourself and know your audience well. If what you are doing feels wrong
to you, then maybe you should consider not doing it. Likewise, you need
to understand your audience. You don't want to challenge someone else’s
faith, just entertain them.

In my case, I perform routines involving ghosts, werewolves, and more.
I am comfortable with that as long as my audience understands that what
they are seeing is theater. But those are the parameters that work for me,
you must determine what works for you and your audience. And what works
may change over time.

You are asking important questions. Pray, study, then search yourself
for the answer. Good luck.

Dave
God-glorified
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I have seen Eugene Burger perform Bizzre magic...........some was too unnecessary for my faith....some was perfectly fine.........just be careful
Ephes. 2:8-9



For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
Euangelion
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No one should be surprised at Eugene's skill in bizarre magic. He is both a well trained magician and well-schooled in philosophy and theology. Eugene is willing to push people with both which is a lesson for all of us.

We may disagree between bizarrists and among gospel magicians as to how far or in what ways we can push people to limits through our magic but magic that does not provoke thought or emotion is only like a TV rattling on in the background or a best a poorly applied tool.

The goal of the presenting the gospel in any form is the inbreaking of the kingdom of God's grace in Jesus Christ. While denominations may disagree as to the amount and nature of the emotional nature of that event to deny it emotional relevance is non-sense. When a captive is set free or struggles with life there is emotional response and it may have a wide range: joy, confusion, fear, distrust, etc. Capturing those possibilities in a moment of storytelling and illusion with both technical and communicative skill is what bizarre magic and its subset gospel magic are about.
Bill Esborn

"Lutefisk: the piece of cod that passes all understanding."
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