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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Table hoppers & party strollers » » Table hopping Chop Cup or 3-Cup Routine? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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shobley
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I have a question about the Chop Cup.

How long before I get the final loading sequences down? Smile

I've been practicing for a few weeks now, and whenever I look at a video tape of myself I'm doing a poor job of loading
(IMHO).

Anyone have any tips for the final load?
Types of load to practice with, mental preparation, body language etc...?

Steve
mjmoretz
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Shobley,
Perhaps the video is disheartening because you know where to look. Be sure that you are looking at the audience or somewhere else during the final load.

Practice without ceasing your hand's movement during the final load, examining angles with a critical eye. Don't rush the final load, or it may minimize your misdirection. Good luck.
Dennis Loomis
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To Shobley,

This is a tough question. It's hard to know when your loads become deceptive. Certainly you can't tell by watching yourself perform it on tape... you know when the loads occur. And your brother magicians are also too knowledgeable about this kind of thing. You almost have to do it for some lay people and then try to gauge their reaction.

Ask them point blank if they know where the big balls came from. Adults can be very polite and not want to tell us these things in fear of hurting our feelings. Kids will be brutally honest about it.

I can give you some guidance on books, tapes, etc. But tell me, what kind of routine are you doing? Seated? Standing? What kind of Chop Cup are you using? Are you loading from your lap? Pockets? Elsewhere?

One thing I can say right now is this. If when you are getting to that point in the routine where you have to do the loads you find yourself getting nervous or aprehensive... dreading having to do it... etc., it's a sure sign that you are not yet ready.

Do not rush this. This is something that you will get a feel for in actual performances over a period of time. When you get to where you understand how the technique and the misdirection work together and get comfortable with it, and have the confidence that comes from knowing you are fooling people you will have a powerful tool to use in many ways in your magic.

PM me, if you like, and I'll try to help more with specifics.
Dennis Loomis
http://www.mindspring.com/~deloomis/dai.html
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
MikeM
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Quote:
On 2002-10-16 15:38, q wrote:

I was wondering if any of you use a Chop Cup or 3-cup/combo cup routine table hoppin?


-q

I much prefer a one cup routine - you might like to try and get hold of The Chop Cup book by Mark Wilson - The Nelson Chop Cup Routine plays well.

I based my routine around this with the addition of a magnetic wand for one or two variations.

Regards


MikeM
:bikes: :bikes
ASW
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I have to disagree with the standard wisdom expressed on this subject. I think that in banquet shows where you have circular tables that seat 10 people it is entirely possible to perform a 3 cup routine as the climax of your act.

The problem is that the audience control/prestige you need to impose on the table space can only come with experience and age. When I first started in restaurants 10 years ago it would have been difficult to impose on the table space - but these days it's not a problem for me.

I don't do a 3 cup routine, but I do perform a card act that uses a LARGE amount of table space. I simply begin by doing in the hands effects, then use a small amount of table space for the next effect and, once the audience is wrapped up in the show, I hint at the nature of the next effect and announce that I will need more space to accomplish it. The people are only too willing to clear the table space, because they WANT to see the effect. (Mind you, this is usually after the main course, when most of the cutlery is cleared away).

It also helps if you have a confident style - the fact is, I know what's good for my audiences (you MUST believe this to be able to control people). Even if one person is miffed at the imposition, if you blow them away all will be forgiven.

Johnny Ace Palmer performs a 3 cup table hopping (ie, standing working from the pockets) routine on his tapes and it is OUTSTANDING. That handling would be fine for the type of shows I'm talking about. (I haven't seen the other two tapes, and they received a lot of bad press on magic boards, but this handling is killer).

By the way, I use a Chop Cup routine as a closer in these shows. I use the table but not a mat. Most of these banquet tables have thick padding under the thick white table cloth. You can do even the most complex card shuffle material on these surfaces - the same as if you had a good card mat.

If there is no padding, I simply place the velvet Chop Cup bag on the table (my mother in law made me a plush royal blue bag, God bless her!) and I use that as the surface.

Best
GD
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
MikeM
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George Devol disagrees with the standard of wisdom expressed on this subject.

George wisdom is subjective particularly if you don't perform a 3 cup routine.

Believe me I've performed three cup routines in a working environment
and still prefer the one cup approach particularly if it is done as a tongue in cheek challenge to the audience - it focus's their attention on the one cup and lend itself to bags of audience participation - never fails to get laughs and resounding cheers if properly presented.

MikeM
Smile Smile
q
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One cup routines tend to lead themselves to a "look the ball is going here but yet its not and its back under the cup for the 100th time" which is what I dislike about them
Elwood
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q says:"One cup routines tend to lead themselves to a "look the ball is going here but yet its not and its back under the cup for the 100th time" which is what I dislike about them."

Shorten your routine and use a really impressive final load then!
Nicodemus
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" Q " Get the Riser / Loomis Micro Chop Cup routine and I strongly beleive you will sing another tune. The final vanish of the liquid is dynamite and totally unexpected.
And considering it is a routine that Mr. Loomis has done for many many years I would have to say it qualifies as a "Worker".
" Res Non Verba "

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Dennis Loomis
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To Nicodemus,
Thanks so much for the plug.

To Elwood,
I agree with you about keeping your routine short. Probably the greatest Chop Cup Routine of all times was Don Alans. The whole thing ran 99 seconds!

To Q,
I agree that most routines can benefit from other effects. Just having the ball appear under the cup over and over can get boring. Limit that effect to three times at most, IMHO. But, also, take a look at all of the other effects that have been created with the Chop Cup. There are several good penetration effects you can do. Some involve a silk, a shot glass, or both.

Check out the Merlyn Shute Book, the Larry Jennings Routine, and the Camirand Academy "Two Goblets Routine." There are some good color changes you can do. Check out Aldo Columbini's "Laser Cup" routine for a great one. The final loads can be all kinds of things, virtually anything that will fit into your cup.

Finally, consider that the final loads may not have to be the end. I do a sequence of juggling with the cup and the two final load balls, and then vanish the cup. Remember, the Chop Cup is merely a prop. It doesn't have an imagination. The performer does. If a routine is unimaginative... don't blame the props!

If you would like to see pictures of the Riser/Loomis Micro Chop Cups, feel free to visit my web site at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~deloomis/dai.html
Dennis Loomis
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TheAmbitiousCard
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where do I acquire the Don Allen Routine?

Q, you should look at John Bannon's Routine In impossibilia for a different approach.

I want to get the Dennis Loomis Routine but I just started performing the Bannon routine and I don't want to have to start all over with a different one just yet. Those little cups are just so cute!!!

Frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate,
Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
ASW
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"George Devol disagrees with the standard of wisdom expressed on this subject."

No Mike, not the standard, or quality of the wisdom expressed in this thread (as you imply) - but the 'standard wisdom' - that is the accepted view, commonly regurgitated. If somebody didn't disagree with you, it'd be a boring old world...

"George wisdom is subjective particularly if you don't perform a 3 cup routine."

Yes it is, and we are all entitled to express our subjective views... even me. But if you're saying my view is invalid because I don't do a 3 cup routine, then go back and re-read my post. What I'm saying is, the common wisdom that 3 cups take up too much space, making it impractical to perform is not necessarily true. As an example I cite the fact that I do card routines that take up a large area of space (more, in fact than is required for a 3 cup routine). My comments are thus based in experience...

"Believe me, I've performed three cup routines in a working environment and still prefer the one cup approach, particularly if it is done as a tongue in cheek challenge to the audience - it focus's their attention on the one cup and lends itself to bags of audience participation - never fails to get laughs and resounding cheers if properly presented."

As I mentioned, I also do a chop cup and it gets great reactions. However, I'd bet that the Palmer routine with three cups would get equal or better reactions after you reveal four loads.

But I think that the chop cup is hard to beat and you would need to use a streamlined routine with clarity of effect - not too much stuff with the small balls before the final loads. Having said that, it also depends on the performer - I think that, even with the strongest chop cup routine, it would be hard to beat the reaction Mike Skinner got on the Tonight Show when he performed the Vernon routine with tea cups, a butter knife and cherries.

Again, as you note - these views are subjective.

'GD'
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
Dennis Loomis
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To Frank,
The Don Alan routine is explained in detail, including all of his patter in Jon Racherbaumer's book: "In a Class by Himself: the Legacy of Don Alan." Most magic shops handle it.
While I am not a book dealer, if you can't find it, let me know and I can get it for you. Just PM me if you wish.
The Don Alan Routine is also on Don Alan's Greater Magic Video Library Tape which you can get through Joe Stevens.
Dennis Loomis
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Brad Burt
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Hello:

I've done the Chop Cup for almost 25 years and it's a great Table trick, IF, you have the proper situation. Obviously you need the tables to have enough room to handle at least a small table hopper style pad, etc.

I used a regular size cup and my final loads were two hard and solid juggling balls that fit perfectly in my cup. For the record and what's it worth, I tried out the small shot glass size cup and stopped using them right away. I noticed that the EFFECT upon the audience was much, MUCH less dramatic than the larger cup. I don't have a problem carrying the cup as I use a Doctor's Bag with a Eureka Table Base on the bottom.

By the by: If you are looking for a GREAT close-up case you should check out a standard Doctor's bag. The reason is easy: When the bag is open it is the exact same size and displacement as when closed. Think about that really carefully. Open almost any other style of bag (most men's shaving kits fall into the Doc bag style) and the lid gets in the way! A shaving kit is obviously a shaving kit and doesn't give the correct message in my opinion. BUT, a Doctor's Bag is mysterious just by dint of being a
'Doctor's' Bag! It gets attention and in the over 20 years of using one I can tell you the attention is always positive and provokes the response that you want doing walk around.

Luck,
Brad Burt
Brad Burt
Nicodemus
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While the doctor's bag is a possible solution to carrying close-up magic, it seems a bit bulky for the restaurant venue?
How about using a waiters pouch as Bob Sheets does for his cups & balls routine?
Any opinions or input? Please.
" Res Non Verba "

" Deeds Not Words "
rvigon
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Hi, has anyone here heard of the great English magician called Paul Daniels, his shop cup routine is the best I've ever seen with his fast paced patter and stale humor.

If any of you guys get a chance to see it DO Smile
"No brilliance is required in magic, just determination and relatively clean fingernails."
Dennis Loomis
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To Brad,
I respect you a great deal, but my experience has been different. I get a very strong response from the tiny chop cup. In the work I do, tables are just not available a lot of the time. I do the chop cup routine entirely in my hands and out of my pockets, and just needed to get the bulk down. The very small size accomplishes that. In my work, it would be difficult to carry any kind of a bag around, especially one on a stand. If it works for you, however, great.
To Nicodemus. Yeah, the doctor's bag seems a little bulky to me, but then I work close up entirely out of my pockets. I bring in my close up case and find a place to stash it for the event. Then, I occasionally go back to it and change out some of the things in my pockets if time allows me to go back to some of the same folks again. Apparently Brad has no trouble with this, and who know, if we tried it we might find our concerns unwarrented.
To rvigon,
Well I've certainly heard of Paul Daniels. In fact I got a couple of emails from him two weeks ago. I agree: his stand up stage version of the Chop Cup is probably the best one in the world right now. Much of it is his personality, of course.
Dennis Loomis
http://www.mindspring.com/~deloomis/dai.html
Itinerant Montebank
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KingStardog
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Hey Dennis,

I am going off the subject here but saw a reference to the Riser Micro cups and balls on a wesite that had not been updated in a long time. Are these still sold? and if they are are the micro chops interchangable with the set?
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
Kaliix
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Quote:
On 2002-11-04 09:55, Dennis Loomis wrote:
To Elwood,
I agree with you about keeping your routine short. Probably the greatest Chop Cup Routine of all times was Don Alans. The whole thing ran 99 seconds!

To Q,
I agree that most routines can benefit from other effects. Just having the ball appear under the cup over and over can get boring. Limit that effect to three times at most, IMHO. But, also, take a look at all of the other effects that have been created with the Chop Cup. There are several good penetration effects you can do. Some involve a silk, a shot glass, or both. Check out the Merlyn Shute Book, the Larry Jennings Routine, and the Camirand Academy "Two Goblets Routine." There are some good color changes you can do. Check out Aldo Columbini's "Laser Cup" routine for a great one. The final loads can be all kinds of things, virtually anything that will fit into your cup.


Dennis,
Keeping in mind what you stated above, what is your routine like? I am not asking for a detailed explanation, just more of an overview of what types of things your routine has in it? And about how long does it run?

I do Jiggernaut currently and absolutely love the routine for my restaurant work. The Riser cups look very nice and I am tempted to purchase one. However I want to have an idea of what your routine is like, as doing it completely in the hands seems like it might be somewhat limiting?

Any comments?

Thanks,
Kaliix
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Dennis Loomis
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To Kingstardog,
Certainly Jim Riser still makes and sells his Mini Riser Cups. And a lot of other wonderful produces. Go to his site at:
http://www.jamesriser.com
to read about his creations.
To Kaliix,
My routine is also short and follows the plot of the original Don Alan Routine. However what distinguishes it is the cleanliness of the final loads, their large size as compared to the cup, and the novelty of ending by vanishing the cup (shot glass) after pouring yourself a drink. I also often do a sequence of juggling with the cup and the two final load balls, and when I have a coat with a topit, the final loads balls vanish while I'm juggling.
Dennis Loomis
http://www.mindspring.com/~deloomis/dai.html
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
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