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Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2005-06-14 16:56, darkleopard5 wrote:
I have never even peeeked into it, to me, I think its just garbage.


Quote:
On 2005-06-14 20:31, Mystician wrote:
I gotta admit I've cracked the door open and peeked, but that was about it.
I suppose one might find some gems among the rubble, but it's digging through all the rubble that turns me away from bothering with the gems.


Quote:
On 2005-06-14 21:34, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Great! This is about building bridges.


I agree Jonathan, but posts like I quote above your quote make me wonder! When in another post ( http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......6&24 ) I raised a question about the merger of Bizarre magic and Gospel magic, I was understood (I believe in actuality it was a misunderstanding and I belive now that it has been worked out) to have made offensive remarks about Bizarre Magic and was taken to task for it. Yet however my remarks were interpreted, I didn't respond like the posts I quoted above!

I do appreciate your remarks about what can be learned from each other. As you know, an earlier thread of mine asked the question about ways to merge the two genres ( http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......4&13 ), but it did not generate much discussion from the Bizarrists. I am still very much interested in any and all thoughts on the subject, but I fear the thread will soon be lost in the shuffle of all the new threads.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
ptbeast
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Oregon
829 Posts

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Terry,

I love the bizarre forum. I have many friends here and have
learned more than I could ever imagine. At the same time, I
have noticed that there seems to be a prevailing attitude here
of "respect all faiths, except Christianity." I am not sure
I understand it, but I hope it doesn't scare you away from the
exchange of knowledge of which you spoke.

Dave
sinnead zenun
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Mt. Makiling
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Yes I go there once in a while like any other forum here, just to observe and learn... I even had a book about clown ministry... the thing I hate about that forum is "i" feel that most of them is focus to the dominant christianity... like roman catholic and protestant... and its very hard to discuss routine there especially if your a christian but in a different sect than theirs...
Clifford the Red
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LA, California
1935 Posts

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Quote:
On 2005-06-14 23:58, Terry Holley wrote:
Yet however my remarks were interpreted, I didn't respond like the posts I quoted above!


Touche' And you thought I was a loose cannon!

There is a difference between "garbage" and "not my cup o' tea". One is a vague derogatory opinion about others, one is an internal observation. I would hope that we would aspire to be intellectual artists and, as such, try to choose the higher road.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
chmara
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If one accepts an infinite godless universe -- and one's own real insignifigence in that universe -- questions of maximizing your role in life as short and tenious as it may be -- become irrelevant. You get to work on being the best and happiest you can.

It becomes easier to realize that when it is over, like any good performance, it is over. If you did not put your all into the performance (or life) there is no one to blame.

And to some - overcoming simple circumstance is as great a performance as they will ever have and deserve the applause. One armed magician's. Painters (good and bad) who must use feet or teeth to hold a brush. Men, who after a car accident write a book by blinking their eyes in a code.

As we are raised by parents - we desire eternal parents to comfort us in our decisions. It is a wish and for many a belief that makes them extraordinary people and performers. And as long as they do not force me to adhere to their life system -- I applaud them. It is the same in magic. My magic is mine to do for those who applaud my efforts and approaches. They may be incorrect in political senses, offend some's moral codes, uplift others into thinking about values -- or just entertain.

It is taking me a lot of years to mature. Maybe I will make it by age 80 -- another 15 years. But then, again, I have been very succesful in extending adolescence beyond almost all previously known limits.
It is the day I stop learning, stop respecting mankind, stop respecting other's beliefs (as crazy as they may be) and fighnting thoise beliefs that are harmful to me and mine -- that it will be time to bury me.

During the last year, one of our more esteemed colleagues on this forum caught me up short by pointing out I was becoming too vitriolic in some areas of complaint about dogmatic approaches -- particularly in matters of Christian religion. I evaluated my past "performances" and found, that not only was he somewhat correct, but that I owed him an apology, which I rendered.

So, it is not only on stage we must look at our moves -- but off as well. And we must hope for the balance of friends, acquaintances and even loyal opposition to help us retune our orchestration of lifes wonderful performance so we indeed play a part in it's orchestra. And as magicians. we have many solo parts that so many people in life never have the opportunity to perform that we must practice -- as if we were looking for a path to Carnegie Hall.

Lest you think these the ravings of a madman -- you must know that the voices in my head told me to write this stuff -- as well to get on with a good life of much more than acquisition of purely material goods.
Gregg (C. H. Mara) Chmara

Commercial Operations, LLC

Tucson, AZ



C. H. Mara Illusion & Psychic Entertainments
Mystician
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Wallachia
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I have to clarify my statements to Terry some:
By "rubble", I mean, not so much the raw principles or ideas discussed within that forum, but the specifics, the preaching - after all, religion is defined by a certain set of rules as well as beliefs, implemented in an organized manner, and generally enforced by a hierarchy of some sort; that's what defines one religion from the next.
That's why I prefer philoshophy, or spirituality, if you will. I don't like the prepackaged deal, I never have and never will. That's the "rubble" I speak of.
My opinion, obviously.
The paradox is, that inclusivity (membership) infers exclusvity (not a member).
The more specific you get and the more organized you make it, the less tolerant you become, there's really no way around that. Gospel magic is a very specific niche, more specific than Bizarre, I think.
I just don't think I'd be comfortable there, basically - too much emphasis on religion.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com
Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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Agreed that their presentations are more focussed and have ONE principal deity... Where they interpret from one book, others can work from ANY book to offer a story with ANY perspective.

That said, the rest of the ideas and principles are shared common ground. I believe we can learn from eachother and share much in the way of findings and open discourse.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Gede Nibo
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OH Chmara!! your words cut through the Illusion like a diamond on glass...I always look forward to your thoughts...verily it is only the Self that must and shall account for one's deeds...one should ultimatley not feel bad about his/her misdeeds, neither shall one celebrate one's virtues...its all experience...and every piece of coal, I say again, has the potential to eventually become a diamond...

and the Christian forum is valid...e'en the G-D they pray to was and to them is the grand Magician...
Clifford the Red
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I was at an Illuminated Manuscript Exhibition at the Getty Museum and came upon a book leaf that portrayed God in a pointed Wizard's Hat brandishing a Wand. I nearly risked being hauled off into some back room of the museum and taught a lesson by yanking out my camera and snapping some pics. But I didn't particularly want to relive that episode of Alias where the guy pulls out teeth....that day...so I thought better of it. But I wish I had. I thought it was particularly poignant and insightful, especially from the period of history it came from. Still trying to find a "legitimate" pic of it. So be on the lookout, you'd love it too.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Mystician
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Wallachia
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Clifford, did you try a google image search with the keywords "God" and "Wizard" ?
It yields a lot of hits.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
http:// www . phrets . com
Visit http://www.bizarremagic.net
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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A quick update. There is a thread in the "good news" section about presenting the ideas of Judaism. Some diversity at last! Are you brave enough to request or offer some help to spread the word of Dagon or Chtulhu? Only sincere posts there folks. Remember this is about building bridges.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-06-16 18:20, Mystician wrote:
Clifford, did you try a google image search with the keywords "God" and "Wizard" ?
It yields a lot of hits.


Actually none were what I was referring to. This is an early illuminated manuscript.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
spook
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Columbus, OH
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Quote:
On 2005-07-13 13:14, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Are you brave enough to request or offer some help to spread the word of Dagon or Chtulhu?


I do believe the only time the bible mentions Christ becoming angry was when he screamed "Get your tentacles off those pentacles!" (Revised Arkham Version)
msho104882
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In advance .........sorry but I could not resist
In the forums listing we are only one step away from "The Good News" separated by " A penny for your thoughts".........Is that all it would cost to cross that bridge and would mentalists and hypnotists be good intermediaries Smile
Jonathan Townsend
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Msho... no Charron reference?

The road to Arkham is paved with good books.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Midnight333
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I read some where in the previous post that this forum (bizarre) tolerates all religeous views except christianity. I think the tendancy comes from the all too common assault by certain zealots on the general populace. Im not saying all religeous people are bad but the christians get some real bad press from their independent guys who for instance stand outside the club at night and tell me Im going to hell. I think that a lot of the guys interested in the topics on this forum are not down with the christianity because they have been oppressed. That is how I feel. I don't care who you are, you do not tell me what to worship what to believe and where Im going. So, yeah. I settle to seethe with the dark guys who say, "Think for yourself and see where it takes you.
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Midnight:

Unfortunately, intolerance has no demographic boundary, and may be found inhabiting the hearts of those who claim diverse divinities as well as those claiming none. However, it may useful to define "intolerance."

Intolerance seeks to eliminate divergent views by physical force, governmental fiat, litigation, or societal manipulation. If, in the incident you described, you were subjected to harrassment or temporal threats intended to bully you into some sort of forced conversion, then I would agree you'd been subjected to intolerance.

However, I'm not sure how a simple declaration of someone's belief is an example of intolerance. In your example, if the person simply said something to the effect of ""You are not "X," therefore you are subject to "Y" in the afterlife,"" you may reasonably disagree, reject the statement, or ignore it as irrelevant. But claiming that the mere expression of that view is "intolerant" is itself intolerant. If we would avoid intolerance, we must permit others to hold and express views we do not ourselves affirm.

Leland
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-07-13 18:43, Midnight333 wrote:
I read some where in the previous post that this forum (bizarre) tolerates all religeous views except christianity. ...


Such a post is bating. Cite your sources. Of course you are free to believe you read such a thing, and also free to hold the opinion you claim was stated a post you read. When you can own your opinions and state your positions on matters you will find the respect mere gossip does not earn.

A reminder: building bridges and testing the water is not the same as sending over an invading army or poisoning the well. My question to this forum is about building bridges to exchange ideas and good will.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
leftytheclown
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Illinois
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So many thoughts, so little time.

Message for Payne. I assume you are open minded. Richard Dawkins, the renowned evolutionist and secular humanist, is very closed minded along with other scientists who hold evolution as fact, not theory, but still waiting to be verified. Again, if you are truly interested in a different point of view, read Lee Strobel's, "The Case for a Creator".

By definition, Christianity claims exclusivity as being the only way to heaven. Jesus stated, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except by me." (No I don't want to split hairs about what is heaven.) However, at some point all religions become exclusive. Even Secular Humanism claims exclusivity by claiming there is no God. They, as Ravi Zacharias noted claim there is no absolute truth, which is in itself stating an absolute truth. Pause for thought moment: If there is no God, then life as we know it has no meaning. Think about that.

Claiming exclusivity is not a bad thing if you don't impose by force your concepts. Stating your beliefs and trying to influence others is not intolerance. However, it seems to me, that there is a growing movement from secular humanists to impose their beliefs through passage of laws and the court system to prohibit religious freedom in public. I would classify this as intolerance.

Using bizarre or spooky magic in a Christian setting poses problems. Much of the bizarre magic I've seen has occult themes, which is forbidden and condemned in the Bible. I'm not qualified to critcize or judge another performer using bizarre or spooky magic to promote religious beliefs other than Christianity. Does the theme fit your style? Do you believe in the beliefs you are promoting?

God bless.
Lefty (aka) Sterling Dare
Author: Money Menagerie
Book and DVD
Payne
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Ah, but your buying into the common misconception that Bizarre magic must be dark and spooky. I used to believe this too until it was pointed out to me that it also encompasses story telling magic. Since much so-called gospel magic is story based it falls under the auspices of bizarre magic by default.

Mr. Lefty the Clown, I am very open minded about many things and if I ever encounter valid evidence that contradicts evolution I more than likely will consider it. It is just that no evidence of this nature has yet to be unearthed. Sure there are holes and gaps in the theory but these are being filled in every day and as it stands evolution is the best theory we have going at the moment.

I too buy into the belief that there are no moral absolutes and the fact that there is no god nor any great purpose to life has never bothered me. I try to live my life as best I can and not be a problem to any one else. sort of the golden rule of do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Therefor I don't try to get the government to subsidies these beliefs by sponsoring monuments and events espousing these views and I trust you are not in favour of such tactics either.
Sure I'd love to chisel in hundred foot tall letters on Mount Rushmore "There is no god, get over it" but such an action is prohibited by our constitution just as a statement of the opposite nature is not allowed either.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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