While I don’t generally have a problem putting a message with an effect, except for a little lesson on Omniscience where I use a one-ahead "predicted" card effect, I have really stayed away from mentalism effects because I have a hard time separating them from mind reading or "Witch of Endor" concept in my thinking. And I don’t want to be teaching or illustrating something that looks so much like mind control or mind reading.



Does anyone else have an issue with this type of effect, or do you have a way of presenting Mentalism that puts it on a different level?



Thanks for any thoughts on this.



BroDavid



_________________

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.

I had recently decided to explore this avenue, myself, but (like you) I had certain religious reservations.



I don't want people thinking I have powers that I don't have. Some people, no matter what the performer says, will believe what they want to believe. I don't want to be responsible for that. I don't even claim to have powers with my "regular" magic.



I have ordered a book, and I will read it, but I don't think I'll ever perform a mentalism trick in public. I think it's an interesting style of magic, and the routines can make for astounding effects, but I don't think it's for me. I will study it, and maybe even practice those moves which require sleights, (palming the "extra" slip, or whatever) but I won't perform any of it anytime soon.



Pete

I have to say that I am deeply disturbed by such a seemingly ill informed post about the use of mentalism by a Christian Magician. Mentalism like any form of magic can be presented in numerous ways and should be adapted to suit the performer and audience appropriately.



There is nothing inherently wrong in using mentalism. I think as Christians we need to be very careful about writing things off before we have even taken the time to learn about them.



Big Fat Daddy I am glad you have ordered a book but please read it and order a few more before making any final judgements.



Best wishes

Ken

Thanks for responding Big Fat Daddy, I can see that you have the same concern as I do, that the effect would be closer to Mysticism than to a magical effect.



I do use a predicted (one-ahead) card effect with small groups as an illustration of The meaning of Omnicience - (I won’t bore you with the whole routine...) but other than that one, I just don’t "feel good" about some of the other Mind Reading and Mental effects.



Now Ken, as for your views on it, maybe you misunderstood the intent of my posting. I am aware that a Christian can do, and use any form of magic. Therefore, I don’t believe that either of the two previous posts were ill informed, but instead, we were discussing preferences.



Big Fat Daddy and I, have some reservations about our using mentalism. Neither of us said that nobody should use it. I think we believe it to be a matter of personal conviction. And I would hope that you agree.



When (and if) I find/create/am given a mentalism routine that works in concert with my other material and feels right and God honoring and doesn’t seem like it might be misleading to my audience, I may do more of it.



If you are already there, I think that is great. But for now, at least two of us are not, and that is fine too.



Thanks for your thoughts.



BroDavid



_________________

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.

Ken, I feel I must explain my position more fully, as I did a poor job of it in the above post.



I have offered my talents to God, to use as He sees fit. I have several talents, magic, puppets, writing, etc. and I offer them all to Him, to use as he sees fit.



Now, I am one who tries (though I don't always succeed,) to ask myself, "What Would Jesus Do?" and then act accordingly.



I want you to know, up front, (so that I don't come across as "Better than thou" because I'm not that way) that I fail miserably in the "act accordingly" department, though I do try.



I know there are several instances mentioned in the Bible, (mainly the Gospels) where Jesus fathomed the thoughts of others, but I don't have that divine gift, nor do I really want it, because with it comes such overwhelming responsibility. Plainly put, I don't want the responsibility.



As for the acts of mindreading, I don't think Jesus used the "One Ahead" method, nor the "Cold Reading" method to do what He did, it was "Divine Powers" that allowed Him to do what He did.



This is only my opinion, but I am made to believe that, if I offer my talents to Jesus, I must also use those talents in a manner that Jesus would approve of, from ME. What He approves of from YOU is no concern of mine, is it?



If you find that God doesn't mind YOU using these methods, then more power to you, He uses us all in different ways. What I mean is, it was Noah's job to build an ark, but not Jacob's, if you get what I mean.



I believe that Jacob would have been completely out of his element trying to build an ark, and that's the way that I (personally) feel about mentalism, out of my element. I don't mean to sound like I'm judging anybody else, I'm just trying to do what I feel is right for me.



This has been a concern of mine for some time, now, and when I saw this thread, and saw that someone else was having the same convictions I was having, I felt a certain "kin-ship" with him.



But again, I'm only saying what I believe is best for ME, and (of course) I leave others to make that decision for themselves, as God leads them.



As for the book I ordered, I most certainly WILL read it, and study it, before I make my mind up fully, but (I must admit) it will have to overcome these "obstacles" first.



If I can do two things with the information in this book, I will most assuredly use it. But it must 1: Be somehow able to Glorify God, and 2: Not leave my spectators thinking I have supernatural power, WITHOUT my having to reveal the secret in order to convince them.



As you know, some will believe what they want to, no matter what you tell them, so just telling them, that it isn't real, (in my opinion) isn't good enough. Being that my audiences are mostly children, I feel that I have to take "special" pains to ensure that no one gets the wrong idea. I have stated before, and I'll state again, I would quit my magic in an instant if I thought I was mis-leading children.



I am open to suggestions on how to overcome these obstacles, and, as a matter of fact, I am ASKING for suggestions, because (as I said in the first post) I think mentalism tricks have super effects, and only my religious convictions hold me back.



If I have offended anyone, or if I have inadvertantly pointed someone away from mentalism by my remarks, I most humbly apologize, it was not my intention to do so.



Pete

Hi there!



I am glad that somebody responded to Ken. because I was starting to worry about how people would perceive mentalism within the christian background. Personally I love mentalism and use it within christian organizations in order to prove that it is not power coming from somewhere else but that it is a skill that I developed during several years. I use ESP cards, I do mind reading tricks, hypnosis, and as long as I have a strong relationship with the one who created me and saved me that is the most important thing for me. I used mentalism in evangelization with youth for Christ in France and it worked really well.



Ben

Thanks for your thoughts on it Ben.



I guess that maybe I didn't make the initial question clear enough. But Big Fat Daddy clarified his posting in a humble, but very clear way.



Thoughtful discussions like yours and Pete's were what I was seeking. Thanks to both of you.



I am not against mentalism, but for the most part I just don't have the skill or creativity to do it comfortably in a Christian context.



Most of my work is in Street Evangelism and I am extremely careful to explain that I am not doing "magic".



I used to do a fair bit of mentalism, even "mysticism" before I came to Christ.



Maybe that is why I struggle with it. It may be a matter of Christian maturity (or lack thereof on my part) but your message encouraged me to keep looking at it. Eventually I may find some places for it in my performances.



Thanks again! Nice to hear from you!



BroDavid





_________________

If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.

Hi Brodavid and Big Fat Daddy.



Thanks for the feedback! Your views are genuinely valued.



Best wishes



Ken

I also shy away from pure mentalism effects, for many of the reasons shared above.

I would never want to be the one to "draw" someone toward the subject of black magic because of something they saw me perform.

At the same time, I have heard of magicians who do use mentalism effectively, though I haven’t seen the shows to be able to make a comment.

Many effects can be performed with the "mind reading" or a similar effect done tongue in cheek. That is, the audience knows that you haven’t really read their minds, but won’t have an explanation of how you did it. For example, a trick like Color Vision in which the magician tells which color dot was facing up in the box could be performed.

The performer could correctly tell the color,
and then state something like, "Now you may find that amazing, but what is even more amazing is that God really knows all your thoughts..." and move on from there.

You could also use concepts such as "intuition" or a "common bond" held, that sometimes lets us know what another is thinking. These concepts do not reduce our reliance on Christ, but provide an avenue for some mentalism type effects.


Just a few thoughts!

Doug A.

Good view on it Doug!

I have been working on a Omniscient, Omnipotent, OmniPresent series where I am illustrating (sort of giving a live definition) of these attributes of God.

I will make the routines available later, and I have found some way for me to be comfortable with some "prediction or mentalism" type effects. The change in my thinking came as I looked over an effect I have been doing for years, and it basically approaches things as suggested by Doug.

So although I am still not comfortable doing anything close to mysticism, some of mentalism type effects can be made to work for Christian messages.

BroDavid

BroDavid,

It's been a few years since this thread fizzled out, and I'm curious: What conclusions have you come to, as a Christian, regarding your own use of mentalism in performance?

Thanks,
Jim

I have taken a great deal of heat on this subject. I have no problem taking it again.

First, as a Gospel magician, mentalism goes against the grain. If I do tricks, and God does miracles, what is mentalism?

Second, most so called "psychic entertainers", want their audience to leave with the belief that they do indeed have "powers beyond that of mortal man". As a Christian this is a big no-no.

The real issue here is learning to be a Christian. That means I do what God wants me to do, not what I want to do. We can justify just about anything, but God kinda can see through that.

IMHO, and yes this is coming from one who was there and did it, it is something best left alone.

From my unpublished book:

Before I begin I want to say that there are going to be a great many people who will disagree with me. That is fine but at least take the time to understand my message then do as your heart tells you.

I agree that some of the most powerful effects in magic are well presented mentalism stunts. I also agree that people will really believe you have real and legitimate powers beyond those of mortal man if you do this well and wish them to believe that. My question is why do you want them to believe that?

When I “died” at the end of Cyrano, people cried, they were moved. However, when the show was over, I did not want them to believe I was really dead, or that I was really Cyrano.

It gives me grave concern for our future when so many “rational” people really believe that David Blaine can levitate and bring dead birds to life! While it is the norm today to “write off” such concern as “jealously” of the notoriety Mr. Blaine has achieved, in my case to suggest so would be silly.

My concern is based on what happens when you break down the rational and logical belief system in people. Such a break down leaves them wide open to be preyed upon by someone with a darkened motive beyond Mr. Blaine’s entertaining persona.

Because of this, and other personal reasons, I do NOT present myself as someone with the ability to “read minds”, perform “psychic powers”, or other such things. However, I did want to perform these stunts without the usual “disclaimer” and not just entertain an audience, but actually help them, and give them hope. To that end, this act was born. I share it with all of you to see what you can do, if you put your mind to it.

The context of this show is “The Hypnotist”. Everything in it is around the theme of “Hypnosis”. Now, even this requires some serious discussion, as MY definition of this word in the show is NOT the normal, or even accurate one.

When we think of they average Hypnotic performance, we think of a person making people do all sorts of foolish and silly things while the audience laughs at them. Is there ANYTHING more foolish than that? Sure, people will laugh at THEM, but most people don’t want to be them! I really wanted to get away from that.

The context of “influence” really excited me! If we define hypnosis as “Using actions both seen and unseen to influence others”, THERE is a premise that opens a lot of doors! Think about this, almost EVERY ESP stunt can be sold as “hypnosis” or influence, under this definition! I knew you were going to choose the ace of spades because I influenced you to do so! What a concept! This lets me talk about “good influence” and “bad influence”, Also about who we should let influence us and who we should not!

From there I really ran with the ball, and created the show you will read here. I will give you my opening comment script; then talk about the effects and why I use them.

The almost exclusive audience I perform this show for is High School Students at their all night senior parties. This show was created to show them they could do anything they set their mind to, and that they have magic inside of them if they will be let it out.

This show has been VERY successful for me, with repeat bookings lasting over 15 years at various High Schools. This show has brought me in contact with a great number of young people, and I can honestly say that at almost EVERY performance I have been able to speak to a troubled young person and guide them to the answers they needed and a better life in the process.

There is what you should aim to do, if you want your show to have meaning!

Well, I have got to jump on this one as you are perpetuating a myth about a valid therapeutic technique by referring to mentalism effects as hypnotism or "influence."

As both a working stage hypnotist (and I do NOT embarrass my volunteers, but show them the wonders of their own minds - ask Ormond McGill about my show) and mentalist, I have to take a bit of issue with your presentational angle and offer a variation on the theme that would more accurately reflect what you are doing and keep with your stated beliefs. Criticizing someone's show without offering constructive ideas for it isn't very useful and often tends to upset people, so I offer the following as a difference. It's subtle, but it takes you away from calling your show something it's not (hypnosis).

The definition of hypnosis is an altered state of consciousness that demonstrates heightened levels of suggestibility. What you are seeming to demonstrate is more like subliminal persuasion and persuasion dynamics. Why not call it that, instead? It will undoubtedly eliminate problems with organizations that will book you as a traditional hypnotist and still stay within the truth of what you do.

"Ladies and gentlemen, the program you are about to see is not about psychic abilities, nor about occult powers, hypnotism or anything like that. This program is a demonstration of how someone can read the subliminal messages that people are constantly giving off and how, by using them as well, show how easy it is to direct someone into accomplishing things that they never knew that they could do."

Hypnotists have a lot of difficulties with audiences misunderstanding what we do - my suggestion is a way to help us both.

Hope this helps! If not, no offense meant.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

Careful reading will show I admited the definition was not correct.


Perhaps, but most to indeed make the show about making people do silly things.


OK



Yet here you are criticizing me? Interesting how it seems to work only one way.....

Bottom line, if the shoe fits wear it. If not, don't. The context here is as a Christian performer, and I have made my opinion clear.

I thank you for yours.

Mark Tripp

Hypnosis..............

please forgive me, but you are against mental/psychic presentaions but its ok to use a hypnotic type presentaion......?, I believe the Catholic teaching states this(hypnosis) is "tomfoolery" & is one of the "works of the Devil", Mmmmmm, must be one of the newer branchs of Christanity not desended from St Peter (the Rock)?

Dave.

Some of these considerations are very new to me, and your discussion is helping me to hone and clarify my thinking. I haven't come to any definitive conclusions yet, so please read the following as "thinking as loud."

Perhaps the difference lies in how we define "Christian performer." Was Paul the apostle a Christian tent maker or a tent maker who was a Christian?

I currently aspire to be a performer in psychic entertainment. It might never be realized, but for now it is something that interests me and that I hope might someday become a lucrative or at least a financially supplemental enterprise.

I also happen to be a Christian.

It would not be my goal to communicate a gospel message of any kind, but merely to entertain paying customers. Just as my current occupation is not one in which it is my goal to communicate a gospel message of any kind, but merely to meet the requirements of my employer.

Paul the apostle was a tentmaker, and his primary goal in that vocation was to serve paying customers.

In the either case, whether as a psychic entertainer or in my current profession, should someone inquire about my beliefs, or should the opportunity arise to share my views, I gladly do so for as long as that person is interested, but that it is not my primary aim in my vocation.

In my opinion, everything I said above is different from someone whose primary goal in his vocation/profession is to communicate the gospel message. It would not be my aim to create a psychic presentation that communicates the gospel, but to entertain. Just as it wasn't Paul's aim to create tents that communicated the gospel, but provided shelter.

Note that Paul's tents could have been used for good and for evil; so also could someone use a psychic presentation for good or for evil.

Should Paul have stopped making tents if he discovered people were buying and using them for illicit purposes?

Thanks for the discussion.

Hello all;

I have follwed this thread with interest and will speak from the perspective of a pastor (if you don't mind).

One of the things that comes up in some of the material that I have read is the notion of the "disclaimer." eg. "I don't have powers this is all illusion.... etc" Many note that no matter how many times you disclaim any special ability people will still WANT to believe. It has been my experience that the more you resounding your disclaimer, short of revealing the method, the more people want to believe. So why would anyone presenting the Gospel want to get involved in mentalism?

First, from practical experience: You establish your credentials in the field. (perhaps this should be called the Randi effect?) Then, when you point to someone who is really doing harm with a cold reading routine or something like that people take you seriously. (Takes a thief to catch a thief I guess.)

I can tell this story because the person involved gave me permission to do so. A person was pouring buckets of money into the pocket of a "psychic". He did not believe me when I tried to persuade him that the psychic was a fake. After all the psychic had "read" his mind several times. I then proceeded to do a few minor miracles (good thing I had practiced my center tear!) After he picked his jaw up off of the floor he was able to regain control of his life.

Second: It gives you a chance to point away from yourself in the most important direction.

I did a simple one ahead bit with a group of teenagers. (Probably should have stopped there and let them believe that I could read minds.) After the gosh golly gee died down a bit I said: So you're impressed by my simple illusion. Is that what it takes to impress? What about reality? God created you, redeemd you and is sanctifying you? Impressed.

Lead to a great discussion.

Finally, I think there is a great difference between a professonal entertainer who is there to mystify his or her audience and the "I'm talkin to your dead granny" hucksters who are out there to line their pockets and do harm.

I really respect a Christina performer who has responded to his vocation by being the best at it.

Hi Willliamanon,

Thank you for offering your thoughts. I have read your post several times, and as I continue to ponder various views expressed, as well as my own, I offer more of my "thinking out loud" to the discussion.

You asked: So why would anyone presenting the Gospel want to get involved in mentalism?

My first reaction is to wonder, couldn't the answer to that question be same as the answer to this question:
"Why would anyone presenting the Gospel want to get involved in tentmaking?"

To earn a living, right? Sales people try to convince others that they need to buy their product. Tentmakers try to convince prospective customers to buy their tents. And mentalists try to convince their prospective customers that the theater of mentalism will profoundly entertain their guests.

Your story about the friend who became dependent on the psychic is an unfortunate one. I'm thankful you were able to set him straight. Of course, it didn't have to be a psychic who was ripping him off. It could've been someone from any number of varied fields that take advantage of people's ignorance.

I think it would be ethically wrong for a so-called/self-described psychic to continue taking the money of someone who is so obviously ignorant. But what if the "psychic" made it clear that his purpose was simply to entertain and to evoke wonder or astonishment? People who ride roller coasters enjoy the thrill and the imagined sense of danger. Couldn't the same be true of those who engage psychics?

You wrote: Second: It gives you a chance to point away from yourself in the most important direction.

I'm not sure how this applies? If it is my vocation to be a tentmaker, I do want MY tents to be known as the best tents money can buy. I want people to know those are MY tents and that I'm the one who can be counted on to produce a quality tent. So if I, as an aspiring mentalist or chiromancer, say, "Look what I can do. Please consider spending your money on the kind of entertainment I can provide for your guests or at your next party," would there be anything wrong with that, in your view, as long as it was made clear that the aim is entertainment, not counseling, not anything one should use to govern one's life?

Thanks again for sharing. I look forward to any thoughts or input anyone has.

Jim

Ever notice how this subject really seems to upset people?


Well, the difference sir is that a tent maker is what he seems to be. A so called "psychic entertainer" is not.


As does the man breaking into your home or the woman selling her virtue. Not all ways to earn livings are equal in the eyes of God or man


Ah, but there is the rub. The line of "theater" and "reality" in the world of so called "psychic entertainers" is blurry at best. We KNOW that the people in a play are not real. No so in the world of the "psychic".


Perhaps, but it WAS a "psychic" now wasn't it? In truth this story is neither unusal or out of the norm, as any local police department can tell you.


Again, is that not the role of the "psychic"? To take advantage of the ignorant? If the audience knew the true nature of the methods used, the reaction to the show would be quite different.


Ah, interesting choice of words. I notice you leave out the "psychic" making it clear that this is "theater" and they are not really "psychic" at all. There sir, is the rub.


First, people can "enjoy" a great many things, but the Gospel is clear about what we should be doing and not doing. That is the key in this room.


Clearly you are no so obtuse as to believe that tent making is the same as "psychic entertainment". It simply does not apply as the core concept is quite different.


And just what is it that "you do"? Again, that is the core problem. You really want them to believe, after the show is over, that they have not seen a show. Spin all you wish, but letting the audience believe you really have powers, that you really are "psychic" is against the gospel. If you do not believe or wish to follow that path, of course that is your choice. However, IN HERE, people do want to follow the gospel and as such there is NO place for any claims of "psychic powers".


Yes, and here is why. The bible is clear where we are to look for guidence and direction in life. Even if the so called "psychic entertainer" does not do readings and the like, BUT LETS THE AUDIENCE BELIEVE THEY DO HAVE 'PSYCHIC" ABILITIES, then they have made the impossible possible to members of that audience. They now, on some level, believe that there are people who are "psychic". This ia a path that leads one away from God. You may not beieve that, but it is what the Bible says. And THAT is what the good news is.

In closing, it is important to remember the difference between judgement and discernment. I am not judging people who choose to be a "psychic entertainer", nor am I saying they are going to Hell. That is for God to say. I am saying, that I can discern between the path to God, and the path away from him. IMHO the so called "psychic entertainer" is the path from him.

I leave it to others to pray and fast on this, and seek their own answers with God.

Mark Tripp



Flummery

Read it again, my point is clear.

PS I do not go to the "psychic" forum and bother them. It is interesting how so many of them feel the need to come in here and bother us.....

I don't think promoting the (false) belief in Hypnosis is "flammery", far from it...........


Just nice to see that YOU can pick & choose your act........

be well,

Dave