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jstone
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Jimtron,

You're asking what's different between hypnotizing a child and an adult. I would answer that question with an example. Let's take the cliche of hypnosis shows and say that you make the subject cluck like a chicken. If I'm out, as an adult, with a bunch of my buddies and one of them gets on stage and clucks like a chicken, even if we make fun of him, he will likely not be emotionally damaged from it.

Most adults are mature enough not to push the teasing that far. However, with children, kids are ruthless. They are much more agressive and hurtful in their teasing. It's not the show that's gonna screw them up, but the bullies (or whatever they're called today) and their mean behavior.

As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do.

Children are less emotinally stable and secure, and are therefore more likely to be hurt when/if they are teased after the show. There is, of course, nothing scientific here, but rather an opinion, that seems to be logical in my mind.
jimtron
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Jeff:

Thanks for the reply, I think you made a good point. I agree that teasing can be really hurtful between kids. But isn't there any type of stage hypnotism that doesn't involve embarrassing people, and/or wouldn't lead to kids being teased and bullied? Is stage hypnotism always about making fun of the volunteers? Also: not all adults take kindly to being embarrassed in front of others.

Quote:
As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do.

I completely agree, of course. I was just trying to determine what exactly it is that makes stage hypnosis inappropriate for kids, but appropriate for adults. I don't know very much about hypnotism; I'm trying to learn more.
jstone
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On 2005-07-19 23:19, jimtron wrote:
Jeff:

Thanks for the reply, I think you made a good point. I agree that teasing can be really hurtful between kids. But isn't there any type of stage hypnotism that doesn't involve embarrassing people, and/or wouldn't lead to kids being teased and bullied? Is stage hypnotism always about making fun of the volunteers? Also: not all adults take kindly to being embarrassed in front of others.

"As I mentioned earlier, you can't compare behavior that is ok for adults and say that it's ok for children because adults do it. There are a ton of things that adults can do that children should not do. "

I completely agree, of course. I was just trying to determine what exactly it is that makes stage hypnosis inappropriate for kids, but appropriate for adults. I don't know very much about hypnotism; I'm trying to learn more.


Jimtron,

Before I answer, let me just say that I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying. All too often these posts get uncivil and unreasonable, so I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the fact that you are just wanting to have an intelligent conversation rather than an argument.

As for the question at hand, with adults, there are a couple of things to consider... most adults know what they're getting into when they go on stage. There are plenty of funny bits that aren't "making fun" of the volunteers. Most adults won't mind the fun or even the teasing, etc...

But one big difference between the kids and the adults is, again, the "other" kids. The entire show could go perfectly without making fun of the kids, but some jealous kid who wasn't picked could make fun of someone who was. I also think, however, for the show to be even somewhat entertaining, the kids are going to have to do some pretty silly stuff which could lead to being picked on at school.

As mentioned earlier, this is more speculation than science.
Lee Darrow
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On 2005-07-19 10:04, GothicBen wrote:
Lee Darrow had answered the question very well, with his list of caveats.

However, I am going to address an issue that I feel has been deliberately skirted around.

Imagine if parents find out that their children were "hypnotised".

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the public perception of hypnosis is some semi-magical skill where the hypnotists can get anyone to do their bidding. A cliche, I know, but one that is commonly held, even by well-informed individuals.

Parents could jump to conclusions and think that if you can make children dance around like chickens, then you could easily put them in a trance and sexually abuse them.

For the sake of cash, do you really want to open yourself up to accusations?

Ben

Ben, I addressed this rather thoroughly in my post. The parents ARE notified and a notice sent that if any parent does not want their child to participate, they are to send a letter stating such to the camp or school under their signature and I stated the reasons for doing it this way.

I also strongly advise anyone doing shows of this kind to carry performer's liability insurance.

in fact, I have an eBook on Safety For Stage Hypnotists - a guidebook for performers and lecturers. It's a CD in Adobe .pdf format, readable on both PC and MAC systems. If anyone is interested, drop me a PM or an email for ordering details. I cover this and everything in-between, up to and including groupies, mic cords and man-eating agents!

;)

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
jimtron
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...I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying.

Thanks; I try hard to be respectful and civil, even when I disagree with others.


Jeff, it sounds like you are saying it's not exactly the hypnosis itself that's a problem with kids, it's just that it will lead them to behave in a silly way that will lead other kids to ridicule them. Is that accurate? Or would you say that there is something *inherent* in hypnotizing children that is amoral? What if you were hynotizing a child in front of only his best friends and parents? In other words, if you ruled out the being made fun of part, would it still be wrong?
jstone
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On 2005-07-20 00:25, jimtron wrote:
"...I appreciate the civil manner in which you are replying."

Thanks; I try hard to be respectful and civil, even when I disagree with others.


Jeff, it sounds like you are saying it's not exactly the hypnosis itself that's a problem with kids, it's just that it will lead them to behave in a silly way that will lead other kids to ridicule them. Is that accurate? Or would you say that there is something *inherent* in hypnotizing children that is amoral? What if you were hynotizing a child in front of only his best friends and parents? In other words, if you ruled out the being made fun of part, would it still be wrong?

Jimtron,

That's a good question. I think I agree with you. Your first statement about the problem being more with the kids than the hypnosis is pretty much how I feel, but I'm still trying to decide if I have a problem with hypnotizing children.

I think hypnotizing them is fine, but in the right circumstances (I'm thinking out loud at this point). I think it comes down to the fact that I don't know enough about the dangers of hypnosis in general, let alone the potential impact it can have on children. I mostly am speaking to the concern of other kids being cruel after the show.
jimtron
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I think it comes down to the fact that I don't know enough about the dangers of hypnosis in general, let alone the potential impact it can have on children.

I too don't know very much about hypnosis. I just think that some are very quick to say it's a horrible thing to do to kids, but perfectly fine to do to adults. I wonder how many have a thorough understanding of what hypnosis is, exactly.

Quote:
On 2005-07-13 06:41, Jordan Waller wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-12 15:53, joshlondon wrote:
Jordan, why do you say that? (that it's appalling)

If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****ed up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.

I guess I have "serious issues," because I still am wondering why Jodan thinks hypnotising kids is "appalling." Jordan: In my opinion, if you're going to call someone's actions here appalling and morally wrong, is it too much to ask for you to explain why? Do you think Lee Darrow is "morally wrong" for what he described on this thread?

I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?
hkwiles
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Jimtron.

The parents gave permission for their kids to sleep over at Jackos !

Howard
jimtron
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Howard:

What's your point? Please elaborate. In the example I gave above, I said that the parents are present. Are you saying that hypnotising children is wrong because it could lead to molestation? If so, couldn't that happen with adults as well? Besides we're talking about stage hypnosis, aren't we? Not one kid and the hypnotist alone.
hkwiles
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Correct me if I am wrong..but I don't remember Jacko being found guilty of molestation?
However the point is..the parents gave permission to stay overnight ..Jacko still got caught with a court case down the road. Its bad enough adults later claiming to have some sort of mental problem caused by hypnosis, it would be even worse with kids.

Howard
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I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what Michael Jackson has to do with this. No, I don't think Jackson was found guilty. But apparently Jackson spent the night with a child in his bed on more than one occasion (as I understand it). How is that like stage hypnosis?

Howard: do you feel that there is something inherent in hypnotising children that is unethical? If so, what? Again, I'm not talking about an adult and a child alone in a room; I believe that the initial post was about stage hypnosis.

A surgeon could act inappropriately after anesthetizing a child. But I don't think the use of anashtesia is amoral.

Quote:
It's bad enough adults later claiming to have some sort of mental problem caused by hypnosis, it would be even worse with kids.

The arguments I'm hearing seem to implicate hypnosis of adults and kids, not just kids. Sorry if I'm dense, but I still don't understand why hypnosis is fine for adults but amoral for kids.

Lee has experience hypnotizing kids, and it seems to have worked out fine. Does anyone have evidence that hypnosis is bad for kids (I said hypnosis, not teasing kids or having a sleepover with an adult).
jstone
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On 2005-07-24 17:35, jimtron wrote:
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand what Michael Jackson has to do with this.

Jimtron,

His point about Jackson, was merely the fact that just because you don't think what you're doing is wrong, doesn't mean that it isn't wrong.

Just because you (or someone else) doesn't think that child hypnosis isn't wrong doesn't mean that it's ok.

The analogy, although extreme, proves the point... Just because MJ thinks it's ok to sleep with children, doesn't mean that it's ok.

In other words, even though people are entitled to their own opinion, they must realize that their opinion can still be wrong. It could be your opinion that I have 2 kids and live in Florida, but you'd be wrong. I have 4 kids and live in Utah, regardless of someone else's opinion.
jimtron
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But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.


Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnoized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim
jstone
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On 2005-07-25 00:56, jimtron wrote:
But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.


Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.


I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnoized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim

Jim,

As stated before, I'm not sure how I feel about the subject. I think I came to the conclusion that it was probably ok to do so. In the above post, I was just merely clarifying the Jackson comment. I wasn't stating my opinion of hypnosis for children. I was just saying that if someone has an opinion about anything being right or wrong, it doesn't change fact.
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Jstone
Thanks for that, my analogy was exactly the point you are making.

Howard
jimtron
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I was just saying that if someone has an opinion about anything being right or wrong, it doesn't change fact.

Agreed.
hkwiles
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Digressing slightly..what is so funny/entertaining about most stage hypnosis acts?
If you ask someone in a normal state to pretend to be a chicken or to be Mick
Jagger they would probably give you the same impersonation as if they were hypnotised. Is it only funny because they don't know they are doing it?

Back to the original thread..most very young kids would do what you asked them to do anyway, so why the hypnosis?

Howard
jstone
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On 2005-07-25 03:44, hkwiles wrote:
Digressing slightly..what is so funny/entertaining about most stage hypnosis acts?
If you ask someone in a normal state to pretend to be a chicken or to be Mick
Jagger they would probably give you the same impersonation as if they were hypnotised. Is it only funny because they don't know they are doing it?

Back to the original thread..most very young kids would do what you asked them to do anyway, so why the hypnosis?

Howard

Howard,

That's a great question. Here's some information that may or may not help. I have a good friend who used to be a stage hypnotist. The reason he quit is because he said that most of the time a good portion of the people on stage weren't even hypnotized, but they went along with the gags and "suggestions" anyway.

The reason that made him quit is because it made him a little uncomfortable knowing how much control he had over these people and how willing they were (due to peer pressure and/or hypnotic suggestion) to do anything you told them.

I guess that really doesn't answer your question, but it is interesting to note his observation.
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Some would argue that's all that hypnosis is--not really being under a "spell" or "trance," but just going along with it (and believing you're under a spell via the power of suggestion). If this is the case, it seems to me that's another argument that hypnotizing kids is not inherently bad.
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Look I think I missed something back there.
Is someone suggesting that Michael Jackson using Ormond McGill's techniques for hypnotizing kids? And if so, does did work in its simplest form or was he also using strangulation and ether blown in from under the bedroom door? Which I think would be just plain wrong!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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