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Drewmcadam
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Quote:
On 2005-07-18 17:52, bobser wrote:
Nice write up Drew. Well done. Do keep us informed. TV programmes have been made with much worse ideas!!!

Bobser

Are you psychic? Just back from a wee trip to Arran, and what was waiting for me? An e-mail from an ex-TV producer, now television agent who specialises in "experts", wanting me to contact her. Weird.

Drew
bobser
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Hey, nice one Drew.
Me? two kids parties and a wedding where the cheque bounced.
But am I complaining?
Am I f****ng complaining?!!!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
jimtron
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This thread

links to this article

which begins:

Quote:
"In the popular imagination, a person who submits to hypnosis falls into a trance. The subject slavishly follows the hypnotist's commands, perhaps to squawk like a chicken, re-enact events from childhood or develop a lasting aversion to cigarettes. When the subject "awakens," he or she forgets everything that happened during the session.

Actually, hypnosis is not like that at all, said Steven Lynn, professor of psychology at Binghamton University, who has devoted much of his career to establishing a clear, scientific understanding of hypnotic suggestion. A person who responds well to hypnosis takes an active rather than a passive role, working in partnership with the hypnotist. "Hypnosis involves the participant thinking and imagining along with whatever is suggested, in an expectant manner," he said."

This sounds somewhat similar to jstone's friend's impression (a few posts up). There haven't been any posts from the "hypnotizing kids is amoral" camp for a while now--any thoughts?
Drewmcadam
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Bobser, what a bummer (Hey! Hippy saying!) Suggestion: get your own back by posting a brick to them, and not putting a stamp on the packaging!

Yeah, the "interested TV agent" sound good, but these things have a habit of not turning out to be quite as good as one has envisaged! Good grief... I'm turning into a pessimist!

Drew
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On 2005-07-14 11:26, themindreader wrote:
Hi,

I really don't see any ethical problem here at all (providing that the subjects are not literally children but teenagers).

Simon

Teens aren't likely to be in elementary school. I would be very wary of involving any elementary kids for whom you do not have a prior parental release.



Posted: Jul 25, 2005 9:38pm
---------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-25 00:56, jimtron wrote:
But I'm not saying hypnotizing children is ok. I don't know if it is or not. I've been asking: what specifically is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing kids? You said it's wrong because the kids could get teased; but (I think) we agreed it wasn't the hypnosis that was directly at fault, it was that *if* a hypnotist puts the kids in embarrasing situations, then they *might* get teased by other kids. That could also happen if a child becomes a Mathlete, or participates in a spelling bee. But I don't think anyone would argue that being a Mathlete is amoral.

Of course it's not ok for MJ to sleep with children just because he thinks it's ok. I don't think you're going to get too many arguments on that point.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I haven't gotten too many responses: what is inherently wrong (if anything) with hypnotizing children?

Do you all agree with Jordan that hypnotizing children is humiliating and causes psychological damage? If so, please explain how that happens. And again; Lee has apparently hypnotized children with no problems, and Josh has witnessed the hypnosis of children with no problems. Does anyone have evidence that hypnotizing children is amoral, or dangerous, etc.?

thanks,

Jim


What is wrong may be divided into several issues.

1) Have parents been informed of the program and have they agreed to have their participate? Some parents may have religious objections to hypnotism. It is their right to make those decisions for their children no one else's.

2) Yes, children can be harmed by traumatic emotional experience. It does not have to be real in a historical sense since kids at different stages developmentally confuse reality and imaginary frequently. You may have nothing to do with it directly. However, after the show teasing among young children may well occur about you did this or you did that. Kids may even lie to the participant about what they did further inflicting pain and causing further confusion. An emotionally vulnerable young child may have no resources by which to deal with that pain. If you do not have training in developmental psychology to understand the different emotional needs and vulnerabilities of kids of various ages how will you know where you may do damage and how to avoid it.

3)Do you have a well prepared, professional show that is designed for the age group and their interests? Or are you simply taking a clients money because it is there for the taking? In other words what are your business ethics and responsibility to the client

4)What about your ethical responsibilities to yourself and any people who are dependent upon you. Your disclaimer will not protect you from a lawsuit by a parent. they don't sign the contract. It may be even a suit that you can win, but it will cost you a great deal to defend yourself. Most any lawyer will tell you that disclaimers today only present a stumbling block they are not reliably prophylactic.
Bill Esborn

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jimtron
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1) I agree, and I would bet that most of us would agree on this point.

2) JStone and I discussed this above. Hypnotizing kids could lead to teasing or other duress. But a kid can be teased for wearing the "wrong" clothes, or joining the chess club, or dropping the ball in PE, etc. Also; couldn't one use hypnosis in ways that don't make the kids do ridiculous things? Does hypnosis always involve mocking people?

3) Whether you're hypnotizing kids or doing a magic show for adults, I think most of us would agree that one should have a well prepared, professional show that is appropriate for the particular audience.

4) Yes, you could get sued.

Euangelion: You made good points, but I don't think you addressed the issue of what directly/specifically is unethical about hypnotizing kids. Here's a question I asked earlier in the thread; I wonder if you have an opinion:

"I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?"
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-25 21:49, jimtron wrote:
"I'm still wondering, is it *inherently* wrong to hypnotize a kid. In other words, let's say the parents gave permission, the hypnotist is sensitive and kind, there's no coercion, he's not ridiculing or insulting anyone, only his parents and close friends are there, etc. What is inherent in hypnosis that will humiliate and pscyhologically damage a child?"

Jim,

You bring up some very good points. I think you've got a valid argument for it being ok to hypnotize children. I'll be honest, I can't think of a good LOGICAL argument against doing it. But for some reason that I don't know, it just seems or feels wrong. But again, I have nothing to back it up. You've made some very good points and have asked some very valid questions, and I can't debate any of them.
joshlondon
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I am sorry for jumping in the middle of this, but it seems this is a touchy subject that I've started. Since the posting, I did take the show with the conditions that the only volunteers I will accept are at least 10 years old and also teachers can volunteer.

Now to my question; I know this is a magic forum, and please do not get offended by this question, but, how many of you that are voicing your opinions are actual full time hypnotists? I'm not talking about, "Oh I read Ormand McGill's book, so I know about hypnosis..." I want to know how many of you have actually performed hypnosis shows.

Again, please do not send hate mail, etc. It is just a question that will show me (and other hypnotists) that you actually know what you're talking about. It's just a question, don't sit at your computer for an hour telling me how I'm wrong for asking, or something like that.
jimtron
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As for me, I have absolutely no experience with hypnosis. I'm trying to learn more about it and also trying to understand the views of Café members.

jstone:

Thanks. I had a feeling that some were responding with their gut feelings, which of course can be very useful. But I think it's good to also think things through and ask ourselves and others, why? And when one calls another person amoral, I think they should back it up. My agenda isn't to prove that hypnosis for kids is good or bad, but to encourage thought, reflection, and discourse, and to go beyond knee-jerk reactions.
hkwiles
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As for me, I am very interested in the whole subject of hypnosis and hypnotherapy.
I have a Diploma in Hypnotherapy (for what it is worth!) following a distance learning course.Without going into the long details.I also ended up spending a night in hospital after apparently self hypnotising myself a causing memory loss for over 8 hours.
As with others I feel there may be no valid reasons for hypnotising kids but something tellsme it shouldn't be done other than for medical problems or removing fear of say,going to the the dentist.

Howard
joshlondon
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See, I think this is very interesting. I asked the question above yesterday and only 2 people respond. Come on, there are 4 pages of why hypnotizing kids is bad, yet no one can stand up and say, "I am a hypnotist."?

I realize this is a forum where we can ask questions and answer at will, however, I do think that when it comes to something like this your answers need to be validated with some kind of experience in hypnosis, not just, "Oh, this seems like an interesting topic." Because when it all comes down to it, it is our own opinion about the matter.

It seems like I struck a chord with this question that resulted in 4 pages of answers from people who know a little about hypnosis or nothing at all. I think I could hae been better off asking, "Are you for or against abortion?"
Spinnato
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On 2005-07-26 13:36, joshlondon wrote:
See, I think this is very interesting. I asked the question above yesterday and only 2 people respond. Come on, there are 4 pages of why hypnotizing kids is bad, yet no one can stand up and say, "I am a hypnotist."?

I realize this is a forum where we can ask questions and answer at will, however, I do think that when it comes to something like this your answers need to be validated with some kind of experience in hypnosis, not just, "Oh, this seems like an interesting topic." Because when it all comes down to it, it is our own opinion about the matter.

It seems like I struck a chord with this question that resulted in 4 pages of answers from people who know a little about hypnosis or nothing at all. I think I could hae been better off asking, "Are you for or against abortion?"

I'm a full time stage hypnotist and I think you're asking for trouble. TEN YEAR OLD KIDS? You don't find a problem with that?

I also have a problem believing that your client has a $2500 budget.
jimtron
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Spinnato:

I've been trying to understand the argument against hypnoizing kids, but so far I've heard very little in the way of explaining how exactly this is inherently bad. If you've read my posts, you know that I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I'm very curious to hear arguments from both sides. I would love to hear you elaborate on why hypnotizing kids is inherently problematic.
Dannydoyle
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Now it is time to say something. First of all I can say hypnotising children at even the age of 10 is bad. I can say this for the same reason I can say murder is bad. I am not a murderer, but I can sure see it as bad.

As it works out I am a hypnotist, not clinical, I don't want the long term responsability, only entertainment. I offer no CD's only a show and some t-shirts. the line is quite clear for me black and white.

Hypnosis is wrong for children if for no other reason than your darned insurance policy! From a business standpoint you would have to be a complete buffoon to use children under 18.

From a law standpoint they can not enter into a contract legally. Period. This is what the age of majority is all about. YOU can be in huge trouble if something happnes to them as simple as tripping on a chair. Let alone if you end up with hysterical reactions. These can be dealt with in adults a LOT easier than children. Manifistations of deep seeded fears and such, are tough to deal with if you have to talk to them in what someone else suggested was "Their language".

My gut feeling is that this post is at least 1/2 bull. It seems to me your client does not have $2,500 to spend for 10 year olds. Even if they did, it would not be. It makes no sense. I think you found a market nobody else is actually in and want to see if it is a good idea to venture forth. Well the answer is no.

If the post is real the money is not worth it to say the least.

Just my 2 cents

Danny
Danny Doyle
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jimtron
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Aside from insurance and legal problems, is it unethical to hypnotize kids? If so, why? You mentioned murder. Is hypnosis inherently harmful to kids? If so, how?

As far as minors and contracts, I believe that a parent or guardian can sign a release.

For those of you against hypnosis, what do you think of Lee's post on this thread (about his experience hypnotizing young people)?
Spinnato
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Quote:
On 2005-07-26 15:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
Now it is time to say something. First of all I can say hypnotising children at even the age of 10 is bad. I can say this for the same reason I can say murder is bad. I am not a murderer, but I can sure see it as bad.

As it works out I am a hypnotist, not clinical, I don't want the long term responsability, only entertainment. I offer no CD's only a show and some t-shirts. the line is quite clear for me black and white.

Hypnosis is wrong for children if for no other reason than your darned insurance policy! From a business standpoint you would have to be a complete buffoon to use children under 18.

From a law standpoint they can not enter into a contract legally. Period. This is what the age of majority is all about. YOU can be in huge trouble if something happnes to them as simple as tripping on a chair. Let alone if you end up with hysterical reactions. These can be dealt with in adults a LOT easier than children. Manifistations of deep seeded fears and such, are tough to deal with if you have to talk to them in what someone else suggested was "Their language".

My gut feeling is that this post is at least 1/2 bull. It seems to me your client does not have $2,500 to spend for 10 year olds. Even if they did, it would not be. It makes no sense. I think you found a market nobody else is actually in and want to see if it is a good idea to venture forth. Well the answer is no.

If the post is real the money is not worth it to say the least.

Just my 2 cents

Danny

BRAVO ! Well said!
jimtron
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I assume that Spinnato, Danny, et al don't think that hypnotizing children is directly harmful? It sounds like it's just that it can cause peripheral problems? When kids go on field trips, if their parents didn't sign releases, the school could have legal and/or insurance problems. Are field trips "just wrong"? If a kid participates in football, he could end up with a broken leg. Or he could drop the ball and get teased by other kids for being clumsy. Is football "just wrong"?
joshlondon
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Quote:
I'm a full time stage hypnotist and I think you're asking for trouble. TEN YEAR OLD KIDS? You don't find a problem with that?

I also have a problem believing that your client has a $2500 budget.

I see no problem for hypnotizing kids, no one has given me a good excuse or answer as to why it is "bad."

As for the money, believe me or not (and to be honest, I could care less if you don't believe me) I got the deposit of $1,250.00 today in the mail with the signed contract. The way that the school could afford so much is because it is a private school and the tuition is a lot of money. I didn't really get into how they have the money, because I could care less.

So any good answers as to why I (or anyone else) shouldn't do this? Other than the usual, "It's morally wrong." Explain.
Dannydoyle
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Other than the trouble of hysterical reactions? what about that. why am I bothering?
Danny Doyle
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jimtron
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Danny:

Sorry, maybe I've missed it, but as far as I can tell there has been virutally nothing on this thread explaining how hypnotizing children is directly harmful.

Are hysterical reactions an inherent reaction when hypnotizing kids? Let's assume that the hypnotist is a responsible, sensitive person who is careful about not causing trouble. Is there no way for him to do the hypnosis without harming the child?
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