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bobser
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Just trying io imagine this discussion taking place in the UK amongst British hypnotherapists...
Nope... I'm trying... but I'm not getting there...

Please understand that the above comments are not made in a derogatory fashion. I am merely pointing out the vast differences within our cultures and our everyday lives concerning the morals of this thing we call hypnosis.

The discussion is potentially hugely interesting. My emotional mind tells me it's absolutely the wrong thing to do, however my intellect is suggesting I listen to the arguments.
I have to say that up until now I remain sceptical, however...
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
jimtron
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Bobser:

Feel free to elaborate on why you think it's wrong. I think it's good to hear many opinions from all viewpoints.


Posted: Jul 27, 2005 5:22pm
----------------------------------------
Feel free to discuss lying and whether or not Josh really got the gig or not. Regardless of Josh and his gig, I'm still interested in discussin the ethical implications of hypnosis and children.
cupsandballsmagic
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Okay, I am assuming that this is not a joke then. I would strongly urge you against doing this. I can't imagine for one minute a representative for a school would even entertain this anyway.

If a person is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers, not just of something which might happen but the consequences of things which happen on many levels and even other issues like a parent who wants to make a quick buck.

There are many things that you will also understand very well seeing as you are a trained hypnotist, right? Like the fact that if you are not 110% clear on your voice, timeline, intonation, candence and language patterns then you can potentially be installing ticking timebombs in children's minds and, as you know, you don't even have to use "official" hypnosis on children to affect them.

Before I finish, let me ask you this. What are the percentages that you could have a child up on stage who has issues and may abreact. Are you ready for that? Are you ready for the reaction of the school and parents of every child, the papers?

Even though I am still not sure that thie original post was a genuine one, I must still advise you to stay clear. Please.

Don't forget we are dealing with little people who have to take home a not for their parent or guardian to sign for going on a school trip.... and you want to play with their subconscious?

Children, in school have no choice as to whether they are there or not. If a child does not like something that happens in class, they can tell the teacher but they have no means of getting out of the building and getting home.

Being part of a stage hypnosis show during a school event is child abuse, no if's, no buts.

If it happened to my kids I would report the performer to social services, the school to the authorities, I would take it to the media and I would be certain to show the performer that hypnosis was not the only way of inducing a deep, relaxed state.


Posted: Jul 28, 2005 4:54am
--------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-13 06:41, Jordan Waller wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-12 15:53, joshlondon wrote:
Jordan, why do you say that?

If you realy need to ask this you have serious issues.

It is just morally wrong to do this.

Children are innocent beings that do not need humiliating or being psychologicaly ****** up in front of a crowd of all their peers. Especialy in this day and age.

Exactly. Look at it this way, if you do the show you will be benefitting the economy in another 20 years or so because the children who are going to grow up and be ETHICAL CARING therapists will have the subjects of your show as patients.

Children are still exploring and developing their emotinal intelligence and maps of the world, do you think they have the inherant social skills and emotional intelligence to deal with the situations there would be put in?
RKappe
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One of the dangers of hypnotizing children is they will emulate what you do. I did a summer camp show several years ago and only used staff members as I was apprehensive using children. while I constantly insure SAFETY during a performance, the children attempting to emulate you will not. I have heard kids attempting to hypnotize each other and the commands they attempt to give are less than fun. A summer camp nurse told me of a girl hypnotized by fellow campers and couldn't bend her knees for three hours as she had been told her knees were glued straight. In high school a classmate of mine was hypnotized at a paty and the person doing it keep telling him he couldn't breath. He began to gasp for air (WE MADE HIM STOP) I have developed a family hypnosis show that includes children with adults on stage and it has been very successful. The show almost always gets a standing ovation. No one is made to feel foolish, and the induction is made to appear very complicated to disuade "aspiring hypnotists". To be frank I never have people hump chairs or make out with brooms (I'VE SEEN IT DONE). These are cheap laughs at anothers expense. You can be creative and entertaining without humiliating people. Without competent instruction, experience and insurance, hypnotizing anyone is highly irresponsible. Hypnotizing children is not imorale. Exploiting them is.
joshlondon
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RKappe, I agree with you when you say that "exploiting children is not moral." I never ever, even in a private party show (or corporate for that matter) make fun of anyone. Years ago I used to do the bit where someone spoke Chinese and there was a translator. I got a great response from that, however, as I performed more and more, I realized that I might offend someone. No one ever said anything about that bit, but I felt uncomfortable doing it so I changed it.

I would be interested in hearing a bit more about how you (Rkappe) stop "immitators." I would think the kids will immitate you if they want to, regardless of what you say.
Dannydoyle
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Josh are you EVER going to adress hysterical reactions and how do deal with them in children? You pick and choose what you want to adress. This is the primary reason NOT to do it.

Gambituk is right 100% when he says it is child abuse to have them part of a hypnosis show. Said it perfectly.

And at 24 what makes you think you have anything lecture worthy? Most guys are in the business 24 years before they figure they can start lecturing.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
jimtron
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Quote:
One of the dangers of hypnotizing children is they will emulate what you do.

This could also happen if children were in the audience of a show where adults are getting hypnotized.

Quote:
rson is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers...

gambituk1: what exactly are the inherent dangers in your view?

thanks,

Jim
RKappe
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Josh,
On stopping imitators. Most hypnotists that I've encountered rush through the induction. They make it look easy. The thought then is I can do it too.

I aproach the induction as part of the entertainment and not something boring to get through to get to the "FUN STUFF". I've seen Hypnotists even apologize that they will be boring the audience briefly (DO NOT KILL THE ENTERTAINMENT POTENTIAL OF ANYTHING YOU DO). Make your induction mysterious and magical and appear sophisticated. It will become entertaining in and of itself. As corny as this sounds it will add credibility to your show. The "aspiring hypnotists" don't find it so easy to copy you. If they copy you, chances are they won't succeed.

I did a show in Reno. The star of the show was a 7 year old. Her father was a physician and gave her permission to participate. The physician that hired me said he was skeptical about hypnosis in general but I made him a beliver. He atributed this to my induction process. Until me. he had seen the speed induction and gave it little credibility.

Hypnosis with children is an elaborate form of role playing. Children do this naturally. Make your skits fun for them. Relate to things they already do and you'll have no problems. You want them to appear cool and envied by those watching. This is when making them the stars is critical and a template for a successful show.

Children self-Hypnotize on a regular basis. Try to get their attention while they're on the compter or playing a video game!!! I believe that putting them in trance is not the problem. What you do with them in trance is the real issue.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 13:47, RKappe wrote:
You want them to appear cool and envied by those watching. This is when making them the stars is critical and a template for a successful show.

RKappe,

I appreciate your post. I do, however, have a concern with the above comment. Isn't it dangerous to put a child in a situation where he is envied by those watching? That's the stuff that gets kids beat up. Young kids who have serious attitude problems end up beating up kids that they envy. Your thoughts?
RKappe
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In response to kids being beaten up for being envied then letting kids help you with a magic effect could yield the same result. My point is that a lot of the apprehension eminates from the notion that the hypnotist will replace the adults with children. We have G movies PG movies R movies... Just as we adjust our magic material for the audience census a good hypnotist will do the same for their shows. The envy comes from wishing they were participating too. Nothing long term or deeper than that. If you take the average adult hypnosis show it usually is perceived as "look what that guy can make them do". Blue material is used to milk a cheap laugh which is realy a laugh of releif from the audience thankful they're not on stage. I truly make stars out of my participants. That is why the show gets a standing ovation. It's not for me it's for them.

If envy got children beaten up then don't let them play musical instruments, excel in sports, or displaY ANY acheivment in any way lest they fall victim to beatings. I think everyone has gone back and forth a little too much on this thread and are reading into everything a little too much. A child that would beat another out of envy is seriously messed up and should be treated by professionals. I have never heard of a child being beaten after a show.
Perhaps "admired" would have served better than "envied".
Dannydoyle
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Ok now you have a child on stage hysterical. Not just throwing up but hysterical. As Ormond tells us in his now famous encyclopedia, you talk to them in their own language. Now don't you think calming a child who is hysterical at age 10 will be tough? THIS has been my point and when you asked about dangers it was my main concern.

You don't seem qualified to make sure they are safe if you have to ask these questions.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cupsandballsmagic
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Quote:
Some people think there is nothing wrong with hypnotizing children (at least one person with extensive firsthand experience). Gambituk1 has said that it's child abuse.

I didn't say that at all and I do not appreciate being misquoted. I am an Ericksonian hynotherapist and have used hypnosis in the ***correct context*** for people of ALL ages. I backed up what I said by saying that hypnosis in the context framed in my post was child abuse.

Either read the posts and info people give to back them up or stop trying to fuel the fire.
jimtron
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Gambituk1:

I'm sorry if I did not accurately quote you. To avoid any misrepresentation, I have quoted the entire post in question (see below).

Thanks,

Jim

Quote:
On 2005-07-28 04:39, gambituk1 wrote:
Okay, I am assuming that this is not a joke then. I would strongly usrge you against doing this. I can't imagine for one minute a representative for a school would even entertain this anyway.

If a person is professional enough to ethically practice in any region of hypnosis then they have the sommon sense and intellect to realise the inherant dangers, not just of something which might happen but the consequences of things which happen on many levels and even other issues like a parent who wants to make a quick buck.

There are many things that you will also understand very well seeing as you are a trained hypnotist, right? Like the fact that if you are not 110% clear on your voice, timeline, intonation, candence and language patterns then you can potentially be installing ticking timebombs in children's minds and, as you know, you don't even have to use "official" hypnosis on children to affect them.

Before I finish, let me ask you this. What are the percentages that you could have a child up on stage who has issues and may abreact. Are you ready for that? Are you ready for the reaction of the school and parents of every child, the papers?

Even though I am still not sure that thie original post was a genuine one, I must still advise you to stay clear. Please.

Don't forget we are dealing with little people who have to take home a not for their parent or guardian to sign for going on a school trip.... and you want to play with their subconscious?

Children, in school have no choice as to whether they are there or not. If a child does not like something that happens in class, they can tell the teacher but they have no means of getting out of the building and getting home.

*****Being part of a stage hypnosis show during a school event is child abuse, no if's, no buts.*****

If it happened to my kids I would report the performer to social services, the school to the authorities, I would take it to the media and I would be certain to show the performer that hypnosis was not the only way of inducing a deep, relaxed state.

(asterisks added)

Ok, thanks. I look forward to discussing this topic further with anyone who would like to express their views. For those of you who are tired of this topic, there are thousands of others here at the Café.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 23:46, RKappe wrote:
In response to kids being beaten up for being envied then letting kids help you with a magic effect could yeild the same result. My point is that a lot of the apprehension eminates from the notion that the hypnotist will replace the adults with children. We have G movies PG movies R movies... Just as we adjust our magic material for the audience census a good hypnotist will do the same for their shows. The envy comes from wishing they were participating too. Nothing long term or deeper than that. If you take the average adult hypnosis show it usually is perceived as "look what that guy can make them do". Blue material is used to milk a cheap laugh which is realy a laugh of releif from the audience thankful they're not on stage. I truly make stars out of my participants. That is why the show gets a standing ovation. It's not for me it's for them.

If envy got children beaten up then don't let them play musical instruments, excel in sports, or displaY ANY acheivment in any way lest they fall victim to beatings. I think everyone has gone back and forth a little too much on this thread and are reading into everything a little too much. A child that would beat another out of envy is seriously messed up and should be treated by proffesionals. I have never heard of a child being beaten after a show.
Perhaps "ADMIRED" would have served better than"ENVIED".


RKappe,

All excellent points. Thanks for the post.
Dannydoyle
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Here is my final problem with children and hypnosis. Actually it has been demonstrated throughout this thread. Children are a protected class in this country. A crime comitted on a child carries a worse sentence than that same crime on an adult. Not saying hypnosis is a crime, just making a point.

Lets say for the sake of your arguement that hypnosis is no more dangerous than it is for adults. Ok, being a trained hypnotist you know there ARE very real dangers. So why would you subject the little ones to that danger? IF something happens the reaction from the masses will be unbelievable, even with prior parental concent. It is a risk not worth taking, forget the moral and ethical implications as they are fluid with each performer it seems.

The point really is WHY risk it. People jump to the defence of children. Imagine the news coverage if something simple happened like a sprained ankle. Lots of movement and reactions these things happen. Insureance will not cover it I promise you, then you are in for it big time.

Which brings me to my next point who insures you in the first place that you can do kids shows with the hypnosis. I can't imagine anyone does to tell the truth. Actually I have trouble imagining a place to certify you at the age of 15 and trouble figuring out how you became a hypnotist that early. It makes no logical sense, and see this is some of the problems that I and a few others here have with the post.

Again saftey of anyone hypnotised is the paramount concern of the hypnotist. Evem above his or her own! Of this there can be no arguement. If your not a trained to deal with children spacifically you have [b]no]/b] business doing hypnosis shows for them spacifically plain and simple. No insureance is unsafe so if you can't find an insurance provider to cover it you shouldn't do it.(and I refuse to believe you can). Sounds like the question is answered. You can keep looking for someone to agree with you, but a trained professional, I doubt it.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
jimtron
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Quote:
The point really is WHY risk it.

For me, I'm not asking about this because I'm considering doing a show involving hypnotizing children. I'm curious about what exactly hypnosis is and how it affects people. That's why I've been asking about the inherent danger (if any).

Quote:
Lets say for the sake of your arguement that hypnosis is NO MORE DANGEROUS than it is for adults. Ok, being a trained hypnotist you know there ARE very real dangers.

What are some of the dangers of hypnotizing adults? Also, is this true with both stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy?
joshlondon
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Danny, for the first time, I agree with you. Which is suprising to me. I don't need to explain how I started doing hypnosis when I was 15, but I'll tell you if it intrigues you that much, just let me know. As for this thread, I think it is all up to our own beliefs, for me personally, I see nothing wrong with it. I am not hypnotizing kids that are 6-7, but rather 10,11, and up. In fact the human mind isn't fully developed until the early 20's, so with that said is it even safe to do a high school show?

There hasn't been much facts given to support anyone's opinion, because they are just that opinions. I respect and read everyone's posts, then conclude my own belief. There is no changing what one believes, so it is a never ending cyclye, here we are on page 6 already.
jimtron
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Do you guys think we've aired this stuff out enough, and now we could get back on topic? Perhaps if some of you feel some of this stuff is unresolved between each other, either you could PM each other, or start a new thread. I was hoping we could continue discussing the issue of hypnois and children. Or should I start a new children/hypnosis thread?
Dannydoyle
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This topic is actually more contentious than religion.

jmtron are you a hypnotist>? I ask because you should know the dangers. If not then the dangers are spelled out in MANY sourses from Erickson to Grinder (may be spelled wrong.). As I said doing this to children is no more dangerous than it is with adults, but when people jump to defend children so quickly, why risk any danger?

Forget ethical, ( because it is a personal question ) just go for business. It would be the worst thing that could happen to anyones business to have a hurt child in the newspaper for your show. Hypnosis already has enough trouble in the public eye and a hurt child will definitely fuel that fire to say the least.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
jimtron
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No, I'm not a hypnotist. As I said a few posts up, I'm not curious about this because I want to hypnotize children, but because I'm interested in learning more about how hypnosis affects people. So for me personally, the questions of "why risk danger" or, "is this bad for business" are not releveant. I don't plan on hypnotizing anyone.
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