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hkwiles
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Howard Wiles
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If I was on the Board of Governers I would be questioning if this was the best thing that $2500 could be spent on.

Howard
jo
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May I make one or two observations?

Seems a lot of bickering in the Café could be avoided if people simply back up their opnions... which they are entitled to, from the outset. Each viewpoint expressed in here is valid and comes with its own amount of experience and thought-provoking questions. I too, would like to know a reason behind someone saying something like: "its wrong". And I would be prepared to listen to that reason and perhaps debate it. Josh, Jordon, I'm sure you both have valid points and see the other's for what its worth too... but perhaps you guys were just coming from different 'angles' on this?

Another thing is has that only Bob Baker has so far suggested an alternative... and I'm just wondering if it was made clear to Josh that the performance is for the kids only (no adults), or is part of a fund-raising/entertainment evening for the parents of the kids? Why do we assume elementary kids are the ones to be hypnotised?

I personally wouldn't hypnotise kids... BUT... if the school calls me up specifically looking for that kind of show (hypnotising kids) and can pay my fee, it means to me that they are looking for something "different" and maybe even "unique". I would certainly rather offer them an entertaining Mentalism act where suggestion and pseudo-hypnosis can play a part in it, and theme the show on "brain power" or "the power of imagination" or something to that effect. Ian Rowland's "The Subliminal Prediction" from his Alpha Mentalism notes immediately comes to mind. Also, throwing in some "suggestability tests" for the entire audience, were they kids, would do absolutely no harm and would be fun for the kids too (this I HAVE done to great effect). And of course don't discount Orville Meyer's Telepathy in Action... or Zapped! (electric chairs done with older kids). All these can be worked into a safe and fun show that kids can take part in without law-suites or mental scarring, and without the word "hypnosis" ever to be used.
In fact when I have done these suggestability tests as part of a show, I throw it in as "bits of business" and say that it is NOT hypnosis. The kids are then more amazed at their own reaction to the test then they are to their friends. And everyone is complimented on their amazing imagination and concentration.

This I offer only as an alternative to an actual Hypnosis Show for kids.

Just some thoughts...

Jo
KN_Magic
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Well said Jo,

A metalism/pseudohypnosis show would work well. I mean you can throw in some suggestion/NLP without having to put them into a 'trance', but you'd have to get down on the kids level. I think, although it may be perfrectly safe, the potential fall out could be catastrophic.

Personally I wouldn't do it.
You could always do balloon animals Smile

Kevin.
My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night; but ah, my foes, and oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light!
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jo
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Well, Kevin, a "suggestion" that involves balloon animals? Now that's clever... LOL
KN_Magic
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Have you not met my mindreading balloon dog?
My candle burns at both ends; it will not last the night; but ah, my foes, and oh, my friends - it gives a lovely light!
Edna St. Vincent Millay
themindreader
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Hi,

I really don't see any ethical problem here at all (providing that the subjects are not literally children but teenagers). The people who would have a problem with you doing hypnosis here are generally the kind of people who would have a problem with you doing hypnosis with anyone.

I started to study hypnosis whilst I was at the 6th form (18 years old) and I generally found the people around the 14/15/16 year old mark were absolutely prime hypnotic subjects.

I think what could be called into question here is the suitabilty of the skits you will be performing. Steer clear of anything to do with sex, body parts or being drunk and you should be fine!

Just my two pennies worth

Simon
magic in mind
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Hey you can practice on my kids if you like.just make sure that every time I click my fingers theyll do exactly what I say.
jimtron
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I know very little about hypnosis, and haven't formed opinions yet on these kinds of ethical questions. But if it's an outrage to hypnotize kids, it makes me wonder if it's completely kosher to hypnotize adults. One complicating factor is that it seems to me that we can't get a consensus on what exactly hypnosis is.

For those that thing hypnosis is ok for adults but not for kids: specifically why?
KyletheGreat
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Must be very hard to get them to be still and focus on what you are saying!
Kyle Jarrard
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http://www.hypnobilly.com
hkwiles
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I think the point about young kids is they have a very vivid imagination ..great for guided imagery.

Howard
bobser
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I've hypnotised hundreds of kids of primary school age, withpout any problems.
Having said that I was actually of the same age as them at the time!

Actually there is no law against hypnotising children (UK). As long as the parents are accompanying the child 'The blow-away' technique is an excellent tool, and used by quite a few hynotherapists here in the UK.

However, I have to say that I'm one of the 'nays' when it comes to hypnotising kids in a show. And I'm pretty sure that this is actually illegal in the UK (outside therapy). And let's just say (to save a lot of time)that if someone doesn't know 'why' I'm against it... then I'm sure I wouldn't be able to explain it clearly to that same person.

Bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
jimtron
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Bobser: are you implying that it's wrong to hypnotize children because the hypnotist might do something inappropriate with the child? If so, what if it was a public performance, with the kid's parents in attendance? Is there any circumstance where it would be acceptable for an adult to hypnotize a kid?

If I missed Bobser's point, perhaps a wiser person could point it out to me.
jo
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Jimtron, I think the biggest problem that people may have here with "hypnotising" kids for stage is that they may not be emotionally ready to handle the aftermath of such a public performance. I know that this is something I keep in mind.

As an example I have a very well known South African magician as a friend who stopped performing "the Egg Bag" decades ago because of one performance where the illusion was that the kid "layed" an egg. My friend received a phone call from the unhappy parents saying that the kid was being teased to the point of tears afterwards by his school mates.

Essentially as adults, we'll enter any performance situation (hopefully as performer; definately as audience) knowing more or less what the outcome will be... eg. laughter, tears, horror, etc. This is especially true for a hypnosis stage show. We know that the skits performed by us will be potentially embaressing, and so we either give our consent willingly and take part, or don't. Even in today's fast paced world I don't think kids are emotionally ready for this kind of decision. And if they are "hypnotised" without parental consent any behaviour other than their "normal" behaviour can then be blamed on the hypnotist (as alluded to in an earlier post).
Part of the problem too is the general consensus of what "hypnosis" is. Stage Hypnosis by its very nature has trivialised "hypnosis" into nothing more than a funny (sometimes embarressing) side show where the people taking part have "permission" and an excuse to "perform". I'm sure that anyone here has at one time or another, as a hypnotherapist, been approached by a potential client only to hear the words: "Don't make me do anything I don't want to do!" So it's that definition of Hypnosis that you'll come up against in the show world.
My personal feeling is that "hypnosis" as a therapy to assist altering change, does exist, and exists healthily in the form of conversational trance states (Eriksonian) and methodologies that NLP incorporates. And this is all done in one way or another with the consent of the 'client'. Hypnosis as a stage show is something very different, and is done with the consent of those that would perform on stage.

Still, I think that many of these problems of whether or not to "hypnotise" kids for a performance (as per the original post) can be solved by creative thinking and offering a Mentalism-esq type show instead, incorporating pseudo-hypnotic (without the need to even call it that - or hypnosis for that matter) type effects. (And please, if Kevin is gonna be in the audience, give him a hypnotised balloon dog that will obey his every command to "lie down" and "play dead" Smile)

Jo

PS. You could also think of this hypnosis show phenomenon in another way: At any show there will be those in the audience who believe in hypnosis and those in the audience who don't. Thankfully those who believe will take part in a subliminal effort to prove those that don't, wrong. At the conclusion of the show there will still be those that believe and those who don't... but EVERYBODY would have had a good time Smile (and usually at the consented expense of those who do believe).


Posted: Jul 15, 2005 3:37am
---------------------------------------
Ammendment: I should rather have said in the above post that there will always be those at a show that believe in "hypnosis" and those that are CURIOUS (instead of 'don't believe). Those that believe will generally try to convince those that are curious that they are hypnotised.
themindreader
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Regarding the legal position in the UK. I am fairly sure that there would be no problem.

The stage hypnosis act requires all participants to be over the age of 18 - however there is a clause in it somewhere which states that private performances are excluded from the guidelines.

Therefore as long as you could justify that the performance was "private" and not "public" (which you should be able to do OK) then you would be legally fine,

I think.

Simon
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-14 14:07, jimtron wrote:
But if it's an outrage to hypnotize kids, it makes me wonder if it's completely kosher to hypnotize adults.

Jim,

Hopefully you realize that there are things that are inappropriate for children that are completely "kosher" for adults. Just because it's an outrage for a 30 year old man to "date" a 10 year old, doesn't mean that it's not kosher for him to date an adult. One has nothing to do with the other.
jimtron
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Jeff:

"Hopefully you realize that there are things that are inappropriate for children that are completely "kosher" for adults."

Yes, of course.
joshlondon
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With all bickering aside. I think that this subject comes down to personal and moral judgements. It's a shame that a lot of people in our society today try and force their beliefs upon us. If I want to take the show, I will, if I don't, I won't. I think it is, again, a matter of each of our personal morals and values.

With that said, I personally don't think that hypnotizing children is wrong. However, obviously I have to choose routines which are suitable for children (and I'm not doing the show for 4-5 year olds, the ages are 10-12).

Hypnosis has been used in hypnotherepy for a long time, children have been hypnotized for this reason, so I see no reason I or you or anyone else can't do it. Obviously the Pretalk has to be adjusted, and you'll need to meet with the Prinipal or whoever to make sure that it has to be absolutely quit during the induction, or there is no show.
jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
If I want to take the show, I will, if I don't, I won't.

That's fine, and I have no problem with your opinion, but remember, you asked for input, so you got it.

Quote:
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
Hypnosis has been used in hypnotherepy for a long time, children have been hypnotized for this reason, so I see no reason I or you or anyone else can't do it.

Children these days are very cruel, and you could very likely get a kid on stage who is already a little bit of an outcast and picked on, etc. He gets up there, and does something harmlessly silly and funny, and for the rest of his school life, the bullies are teasing him and making fun of him.

You don't have that type of thing happen in a therapy session, and you don't have that type of thing in an adult hypnosis show. To me, that would be enough of a moral risk that NO dollar amount is worth taking the show. I would take the show and hypnotize the teachers.

Quote:
On 2005-07-16 12:58, joshlondon wrote:
It's a shame that a lot of people in our society today try and force their beliefs upon us

If I told you that you shouldn't kill people... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

If I told you that you shouldn't steal stuff... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

If I told you not to be a pedophile... would I be trying to "force" my beliefs on you?

There are some things that are just basic common sense, and unless someone "enforces" some semblance of order then we are uncivilized. Having said all that, I think it is very appropriate to share your beliefs with others. I wouldn't call it forcing.

Do you share your magic with people or do you force it on people? If I watch a great movie, I tell my friends about it, and I even try to convince them to see it. I'm only doing it because it was something that made me feel good, and I thought they might enjoy the experience. It's sharing, not forcing.

If I attempt to share my beliefs, please assume that I have positive intentions, not negative ones. That seems to be the trend these days... whenever someone does something, people assume that s/he meant harm. That's always the conclusion they jump to. Why not jump to the conclusion that the person meant well, but it backfired? It's just as likely of a conclusion.

Anyway... I'll get off my soapbox. Smile
joshlondon
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I have no doubt that you had good intentions, and I do appreciate input, but I don't like it when someone says "It is morally wrong to do this type of show." That is what I meant.
Jordan Waller
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Well it is morally wrong to do this show. If you didn't want to hear this you should not have posted in the first place.
One day I will write a book
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