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Snidini
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Is Chris Angel good for magic? One word...yes! It keeps the art in the publics mind and hopefully will inspire a new breed of of young magicians to think outside the block. Chris is going after a different type of audience; if not younger with a more "in your face" show that the young folks enjoy. He's all the talk with local teens around town. So again, is he good for magic? Yes he is.

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jstone
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 11:46, Dannydoyle wrote:
To my recollection he simply got out of prepared handcuffs and attatched a saftey harness, while under water for only 2 minutes.

Do you hear what you're saying? he "simply" got out of... handcuffs...attached a... harnes, while under water for "only" 2 minutes.

How many people in the world could actually do that. Whether is was an escape, a trick or a stunt, I'm not sure, but to minimized to "simply" escaping while under water for "only" 2 minutes seems a little bit of an understatement.


Posted: Aug 20, 2005 10:44pm
-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 08:39, Eddini_81976 wrote:
I've said this before anf this is ONLY my opinion. I think in person he's probably a great performer. Now, I'm NOT trying to give secrets away or figure things out. I just think a lot of it was set-up, and "possibly" editing done during the garbage can vanish. I also think audiences at home aren't stupid and could come up with that. I like Copperfield, and Blaine better. Even though Blaine "Cheated", I think he was a bit better. To me there's what I call "Legitimate Cheating", such as Sleight-Of-Hand, and Gimmicks, and then there is "Illegitimate CHEATING", by stooges, editing, camera tricks...ECT. Don't get me wrong any Magician Show is good as it puts Magic in people's minds. Have YOU define "Cheating" is up to you. Those are just my PERSONAL thoughts on it. I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with. That's what I like, not neccessarily his stunts, though his being in Ice was slightly amazing. Anyway just my Humble Opinion. Ed, (Eddini).

Ed. For the most part, I agree with your opinion on this subject. However, one thing I'm curious about is your take on "stooges." Why are they not "legitimate cheating?" in almost every magic book every written, there is talk of stooges as "legitimate" tools for accomplishing the effect.

I'm just genuinely curious why you think they're not a legitimate method for accomplishing and effect.
Sapient
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My impression from watching a few episodes is that it will make people think more of stuntmen or daredevils than magicians. But at worst, it won't be bad for magic.
jstone
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My experience, so far has been that it was good for magic. 3 of the past four gigs that I had, someone has asked about Criss. My guess is that had the fourth gig not been a stage show I would have been asked there too. On top of that, everyone at work is asking about him.

Everyone that has asked about him has one of three questions:

1 - What do you think of him?
2 - Can you do such and such trick that he does?
3 - Is he better than Blaine?

I always get positive feedback. They love his material. When they ask if I can do it, I always say, "I have no idea how he does it; he's on a whole different plane. He's amazing."

That always gains me more respect because I'm showing respect for a fellow magician. I'm not sure that someone's gonna call me up and say, "Hey, IBM is having a company party next month, and I was wondering... can you do a show where you hang yourself from your skin on a helicopter."

In other words, I don't think that people will see Criss, then hope to be able to hire someone who can duplicate him, but I certainly think that people will see him and magic will be on the brain... That coupled with the fact that so far, everyone asking me about him loves him and thinks he's a great magician... I'd say he's good for magic.
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Jeff what I guess I meant to say is he really wasnt under water anyway. Lets face it. BUT the big problem I feel I have is not weather I was entertained, I am not a Neilson family viewer so it is irrelivant. The problem was that I guess he had SO many things at his disposal and THAT was the best escape he could come up with. Kind of the way I look at who runs for President and say THIS IS THE BEST WE CAN DO? out of 250 mil or so?

2 more points

One I admire the fact that he NEVER really puts himself in danger. Mock danger yes, real danger no. That is great and I will tip my hat at him forever for this. Too many bad magicians try real danger and, well you read about it all the time.

Second of all I will answer my own question and perhaps change my mind some, he probably ultimatly is GOOD for magic.
Thanks for all the opinions, and CIVIL ones at that guys. Keep them comming
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Eddini_81976
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I think we all have our own personal feelings on "Legitamite Cheating". To me Camera Tricks, Buying People Off, and Stooges in my OWN Heart isn't legitamite. Why? Because a lot of people already "assume" (true or not that Magicians on T.V.) do that. It's almost like the "Too Perfect Theory", which I DON'T believe. In that article, I agree with Darwin Ortiz's take on that subject which is in Genii Magazine I think. To me it's not "Legitamite" because you expose a method. When I PERSONALLY perform I don't want a soul to know how it's done. Also using those methods I feel feeds into the already mind set of audiences that it's done that way. I do HOWEVER have ONE exception. I need to say it so I'm not being a hypocrite. I've wrote about it once before in the Escape Forum. I think if your LIFE IS IN DANGER than using a stooge is okay, like a very close trusted friend. In my Youth Group in Florida I use to Have the Youth Pastor "examine handcuufs" and to say they were real though he knew otherwise when at pool parties and I'd do my underwater escape. I really subscribe to the Richard Osterlind School of no pre-show work. I like Mentalism. One day I want to do a show of just Mentalism, and EACH, and EVERYTIME, I get a volunteer I will use the old toss something behind my back and whoever catches it comes up to help. To me even asking "Have we ever met?" isn't good enough because the audience will just think they'll say what you want them to say. I think it was Einstien who said whenever you elimate all possibilities whatever is left no matter how improbable must be the truth. Or maybe it was Sherlock Homes who said that. Even though WE know as performers only very few effects require a stooge, the audience will think that's what is going on, as a Cop-Out because they can't figure it out. Maybe I Over-Estimate my audiences, that just my feeling. I just want to lead them down the garden path that their's no way of getting to the solution.

Another thing that angers me is that People think Houdini payed off Jail Officials for his escapes. He was WHY I got into magic. I must've read 8 biographies on him. I know that's off topic but Walter Gibson who KNEW him, (I knew Wendal Gibson his Nephew I believe), even said Houdini NEVER payed officials. At one time I was obsessed with Houdini, and I would talk nothing but stuff about him. I think he WAS the BEST MAGICIAN / ESCAPE ARTIST EVER. I think if he were alive today he'd blow everyone out of the water Copperfield, Burton, Haray...ECT, no offense to those guys but I think, he'd be the best especially with today's technology. Sure he DID get help on ocassion, but he never paid anyone off. We're not talking about paying people off though, so why I brought that whole thing up I have no idea, maybe it's because I hear other Magicians saying that sometimes.

All in all I think in one way in a BIG WAY his specials are GReat for Magic. He keeps it alive. I hear Great Things about him, on the streets, and some much lesser not so great things. I hear more Positive things about David Blaine though. Though I didn't like his T.V. part levitation, and some editing on his part, I think his stuff his better. My performing stle is more like him. It's more to the point. Even better I think was the Mondo Magic specials. Anyway those are the reasons. Like I said it's just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm better or worse than anyone but I guess it's up to us on what Cheating methods we use. Thanks for asking, Ed, (Eddini).


Quote:
On 2005-08-20 22:42, jstone wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-28 11:46, Dannydoyle wrote:
To my recollection he simply got out of prepared handcuffs and attatched a saftey harness, while under water for only 2 minutes.

Do you hear what you're saying? he "simply" got out of... handcuffs...attached a... harnes, while under water for "only" 2 minutes.

How many people in the world could actually do that. Whether is was an escape, a trick or a stunt, I'm not sure, but to minimized to "simply" escaping while under water for "only" 2 minutes seems a little bit of an understatement.


Posted: Aug 20, 2005 10:44pm
-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 08:39, Eddini_81976 wrote:
I've said this before anf this is ONLY my opinion. I think in person he's probably a great performer. Now, I'm NOT trying to give secrets away or figure things out. I just think a lot of it was set-up, and "possibly" editing done during the garbage can vanish. I also think audiences at home aren't stupid and could come up with that. I like Copperfield, and Blaine better. Even though Blaine "Cheated", I think he was a bit better. To me there's what I call "Legitimate Cheating", such as Sleight-Of-Hand, and Gimmicks, and then there is "Illegitimate CHEATING", by stooges, editing, camera tricks...ECT. Don't get me wrong any Magician Show is good as it puts Magic in people's minds. Have YOU define "Cheating" is up to you. Those are just my PERSONAL thoughts on it. I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with. That's what I like, not neccessarily his stunts, though his being in Ice was slightly amazing. Anyway just my Humble Opinion. Ed, (Eddini).

Ed. For the most part, I agree with your opinion on this subject. However, one thing I'm curious about is your take on "stooges." Why are they not "legitimate cheating?" in almost every magic book every written, there is talk of stooges as "legitimate" tools for accomplishing the effect.

I'm just genuinely curious why you think they're not a legitimate method for accomplishing and effect.
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2005-08-20 22:42, jstone wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-28 11:46, Dannydoyle wrote:
To my recollection he simply got out of prepared handcuffs and attatched a saftey harness, while under water for only 2 minutes.

Do you hear what you're saying? he "simply" got out of... handcuffs...attached a... harnes, while under water for "only" 2 minutes.

How many people in the world could actually do that. Whether is was an escape, a trick or a stunt, I'm not sure, but to minimized to "simply" escaping while under water for "only" 2 minutes seems a little bit of an understatement.


Posted: Aug 20, 2005 10:44pm
-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 08:39, Eddini_81976 wrote:
I've said this before anf this is ONLY my opinion. I think in person he's probably a great performer. Now, I'm NOT trying to give secrets away or figure things out. I just think a lot of it was set-up, and "possibly" editing done during the garbage can vanish. I also think audiences at home aren't stupid and could come up with that. I like Copperfield, and Blaine better. Even though Blaine "Cheated", I think he was a bit better. To me there's what I call "Legitimate Cheating", such as Sleight-Of-Hand, and Gimmicks, and then there is "Illegitimate CHEATING", by stooges, editing, camera tricks...ECT. Don't get me wrong any Magician Show is good as it puts Magic in people's minds. Have YOU define "Cheating" is up to you. Those are just my PERSONAL thoughts on it. I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with. That's what I like, not neccessarily his stunts, though his being in Ice was slightly amazing. Anyway just my Humble Opinion. Ed, (Eddini).

Ed. For the most part, I agree with your opinion on this subject. However, one thing I'm curious about is your take on "stooges." Why are they not "legitimate cheating?" in almost every magic book every written, there is talk of stooges as "legitimate" tools for accomplishing the effect.

I'm just genuinely curious why you think they're not a legitimate method for accomplishing and effect.



Do you see what happens when you call legitimate magical techniques - cheating?
Eddini_81976
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Such as.....? Who were you reffering too? Like you, I don't like Pre-Show work or Stooges. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini).

Quote:
On 2005-08-29 07:46, Richard Osterlind wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-08-20 22:42, jstone wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-07-28 11:46, Dannydoyle wrote:
To my recollection he simply got out of prepared handcuffs and attatched a saftey harness, while under water for only 2 minutes.

Do you hear what you're saying? he "simply" got out of... handcuffs...attached a... harnes, while under water for "only" 2 minutes.

How many people in the world could actually do that. Whether is was an escape, a trick or a stunt, I'm not sure, but to minimized to "simply" escaping while under water for "only" 2 minutes seems a little bit of an understatement.


Posted: Aug 20, 2005 10:44pm
-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-07-27 08:39, Eddini_81976 wrote:
I've said this before anf this is ONLY my opinion. I think in person he's probably a great performer. Now, I'm NOT trying to give secrets away or figure things out. I just think a lot of it was set-up, and "possibly" editing done during the garbage can vanish. I also think audiences at home aren't stupid and could come up with that. I like Copperfield, and Blaine better. Even though Blaine "Cheated", I think he was a bit better. To me there's what I call "Legitimate Cheating", such as Sleight-Of-Hand, and Gimmicks, and then there is "Illegitimate CHEATING", by stooges, editing, camera tricks...ECT. Don't get me wrong any Magician Show is good as it puts Magic in people's minds. Have YOU define "Cheating" is up to you. Those are just my PERSONAL thoughts on it. I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with. That's what I like, not neccessarily his stunts, though his being in Ice was slightly amazing. Anyway just my Humble Opinion. Ed, (Eddini).

Ed. For the most part, I agree with your opinion on this subject. However, one thing I'm curious about is your take on "stooges." Why are they not "legitimate cheating?" in almost every magic book every written, there is talk of stooges as "legitimate" tools for accomplishing the effect.

I'm just genuinely curious why you think they're not a legitimate method for accomplishing and effect.



Do you see what happens when you call legitimate magical techniques - cheating?
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Richard Osterlind
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What I was referring to is the term "Legitimate Cheating" as used below.

Richard

"To me there's what I call "Legitimate Cheating", such as Sleight-Of-Hand, and Gimmicks, and then there is "Illegitimate CHEATING", by stooges, editing, camera tricks...ECT. Don't get me wrong any Magician Show is good as it puts Magic in people's minds. Have YOU define "Cheating" is up to you. Those are just my PERSONAL thoughts on it. I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with. That's what I like, not neccessarily his stunts, though his being in Ice was slightly amazing. Anyway just my Humble Opinion. Ed, (Eddini). "
Eddini_81976
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To me what I was saying whether the word "Cheating" is the right word, is that there are "Legitimate Techniques", such as DL'S, Side-Steals...Ect...ECT, and "Illigitamate Means" such as stooges, camera tricks...ECT. I hope that clarifies things. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini).
"Treat Others As You'd Want To Be Treated" - Jesus Christ
Decomposed
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"I think David Blaine is better because he did Legitimate Close-Up Magic that we're all as Magicians are familiar with."


I agree. When one watched Blaine, you could defintely see his skills as a magician (albeit some of the gaffs did all the work but still). They show some quick close up effects Criss does and I pay more attention to those because I have no idea if the daredevil stuff is real or not.

On the other hand, Blaines effects in the Ice and Box above the River Thames have never been disproven.
Richard Osterlind
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Quote:
On 2005-08-30 01:05, Eddini_81976 wrote:
To me what I was saying whether the word "Cheating" is the right word, is that there are "Legitimate Techniques", such as DL'S, Side-Steals...Ect...ECT, and "Illigitamate Means" such as stooges, camera tricks...ECT. I hope that clarifies things. Thanks, Ed, (Eddini).


Ed,

The words we use are very important and the word "cheating" carries with it a a lot of very bad connotations. I know you intended nothing wrong and probably think I am making a big deal over a small point, but perhaps my new ebook will explain my concern. Please check out your personal email.

Richard
Julian Kestrel
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Annemann had a line somewhere where the concept was that it was worth using a hundred stooges to fool a single spectator.
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Julian, Annemann actually said that IF IT WERE WORTH THE EFFECT, a bunch of stooges to fool one person would be justified -- but that he couldn't see where it would ever be worth the effect.

The only stooges I've had any use for were Moe, Shemp, "Curly," Larry, Joe, and Joe DeRita.

*jeep!
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Julian Kestrel
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In creating the theatrical illusion of magic any methods are acceptable. YOYOMAN , please be so kind as to cite your source since you are being so authoritative in your use of the "actually said"


Thank you
Richard Osterlind
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Jullian,

You are just so wrong about that.

Richard
Julian Kestrel
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Richard,

I do not see why? S& R used an actress to play a member of the audience in the bit with the tiger. Dual reality motifs are legion for stage work. Television is Television and I do not expect the expeience of a tv performance to be the same as a live one in either the perception of what I see or in the methods and material performed.

I also do not feel that it is the responsibility of a television show to only display works that can be replicated off of the screen.

I respect much of your work but am not sure entirely about what we are disagreeing on.

Best

Julian
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Julian. You should read Richard's new ebook. He covers this topic extensively.

To me, a magician who uses camera tricks and stooges isn't so much a magician but a performer posing as a magician. In fact, in the cases of most TV shows featuring magic, the editors should be getting the credit as great illusionists.
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You mean like "Industrial Light & Magic"?
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lane99
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Quote:
On 2005-08-30 11:01, Julian Kestrel wrote:
YOYOMAN , please be so kind as to cite your source since you are being so authoritative in your use of the "actually said"


I don't know if Yoyoman has the source at his fingertips or not. Regardless, his point is well taken. If he DID say it as you remember it, Julian, it wasn't one of his greater pearls of wisdom. So I wish people who want to use stooges would quit using this quote as a justification. As my mother would say: I don't know who this Anneman is, but if he told you "jump off a bridge, would you do it?"
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