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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts 
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I just received (and corresponded) with a new forum member that PM’d me.
I have removed his name and age references to protect his identity, but I think it gives an interesting insight into how some people view Intellectual Property Rights. New user: Quote:
Hi, My response: Quote:
Why wouldn’t you want to learn it from the video that the creator has available? New user Quote:
I would love to learn it from the video, but unfortunately, I can not afford the video because of my financial status. Everything I learn about magic comes from someone teaching me the trick, or from the internet for free, or from books from the library. My response: Quote:
You are 3X years old and want other people to spend their money purchasing trick so you can freeload them for nothing. New user Quote:
No, I am 3X not 3X, anyways.....I am not asking for other people to spend their money so I can freeload a trick off of them. My response: Quote:
You must think your situation in life is unique. New user Quote:
No, I do not think my situation in life is unique. I realize that everyone has problems, and a lot are worse then mine. Quote:
This subject (intellectual property rights) has been discussed on the forum many times. If you don’t get it, you just don’t get it. Bob |
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gdw Inner circle 4892 Posts
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Some people . . .
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts
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"If everybody skims from the top, we all end up at the bottom" CW
Kregg
POOF!
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flobiwan Regular user 165 Posts
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Here's an idea. Wellington said he'd be willing to do website work in exchange for being taught the trick. You could always take him up on the offer and, in lieu of payment, order Misleading Misled for him and have it sent to his address. Then it would be no problem if he asked for pointers. This is of course assuming you had work for him to do.
Fredd |
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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts
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Flobiwan:
I do not do website work. And, I would not be interested in working with someone that so completely misunderstands what stealing is and is not. "New User" somehow thinks there are exceptions to your right of intellectual property rights. I do not. Note: "new user" thanks me by using my name at the end of his posts (PM's) and it can be confusing. Wellington Bob |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4771 Posts
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Some in the current generation raised on MP3 players, internet downloads, and Ipods have become rather insensitive to intellectual property rights (some of the older generation too). They feel music like air is free, and once they have it, they can share it with anyone. Quality music and magic both require creative minds. Those who create should be entitled to payment for their work. If it's all given away for free, those creative individuals will divert their endeavors to ones that properly compensate them. They'll be gone and all we'll be left with is more mediocre music and magic.
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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts
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Larry:
You are right with one note, if you please. I use (and depend on) my (HP) 40GIG iPod for all my NPR programs. I have never downloaded any unpaid for music. Bob |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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I wish the quid-pro-quo approach had been tried with the new guy. Finding a way to trade value for value enhances the lives of both parties.
Nice to hear some folks might have read some Ayn Rand. I hope you also put down that fan of three coins and disavowed all who have touhed a certain "borrowed" coin trick. Likewise have spit upon the Hoffmann books and burned your copies of Expert Card Technique. Honest collectivists irk me less than hypocrites. If you really want to swear off stolen stuff, check youself first. When you are done makeing sure you are living by your own standards, then perhaps others might follow your example. Okay, shower time here, I seem to stink of something.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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DaveB New user Toronto 83 Posts
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The problem with his "buying a can of coke" for someone argument, is that you bought a can of coke.. but have already drank it! Yes if you are feeling charitable you could buy him a coke, or go to a magic store and buy him 'Misleading Mislead'(for $24.95), although I can think of several other charities that would benefit more from your donation.
By teaching someone a trick, you are essentially making a copy of it.. or stealing another can of coke. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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If I felt it would truly help someone advance in their studies to know something, I might GIVE them a book.
A trick though? With all the goodies to be found in the library already, it seems unlikely a trick would make a difference. The local libraries have all sorts of books. Lybrary.com sells many classic texts full of goodies too. Besides, If someone really wanted to get moving in magic, I would give them a copy of The Stars of Magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts
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Quote:
I might GIVE them a book How is this different to giving an individual the instructions to a trick? We are after all paying for the secrets, not the media that contains them. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 08:19, bootweasel wrote:...We are after all paying for the secrets, not the media that contains them. Hardly, wait till you find out the price of secrets. What you can do is buy a product in a market that uses the word "secret" to offer some glamour to the consumer.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 08:19, bootweasel wrote: Two points, hear is the diference. One: If you give three people books, you have PURCHASED three books. That is the only compensation the author seeks. Two: The trick in question HAS NO GIMMICK. The trick is the secret, the secret is the trick. To share it is stealing. If someone purchases the trick (the secret) you can help them learn how to do the trick without stealing. Bob |
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bootweasel Regular user 124 Posts
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Okay, perhaps a little mis-understanding.
The situation that I was alluding to, is where the book given is your own copy. Not an additional copy, bought for the purpose. In addition, I assumed that the trick in question has no gimmick, therefore written instructions, whether bought seperately or as part of a collection of works inside of a book, amount to the same thing - the secret. I should have been clearer. |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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And if said book is in library for public consumption? You look inside and see it has been borrowed over 30 times. This is 29 times that the author looses out.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4771 Posts
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The magic books we are referring to are not found in public libraries. If you buy a limited edition magic book (not sold in bookstores etc) you are certainly entitled to sell it to another magician. What we don't want to have happen (in the extreme)is magic books to be distributed freely in a file sharing scheme like what is done for music on-line as with Napster. It's not fair to the author of the book and it trivializes and demeans the value of the secrets and techniques these books contain.
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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I do not think the author would loose out if the library purchased the book. Often I have read books from the library and then after that gone out and purchased the book.
When I was starting magic I started learning from three different books. The stars of magic, Erdnase and close up card magic. I met other magicians and one I was lucky enough to me was a guy from Wisconsin Bob Rath. He showed me Christ's Aces out of the Cliff Green book. I put the book on my must buy list and went out to get it the next day! Well I forgot most of the routine the next day so I added some stuff and changed the ending. And then to get the performance rights to do it I went out and purchased the book. After reading it I decided I liked my way of doing it because it was better for me. So I never did the routine Henry Christ’s way. But I got the book because I wanted the performance rights. The point is that I feel that there should be some kind of an investment made by the student for the ideas.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 14:56, Partizan wrote: You may wish to look up information on Public Lending Rights. While not universal, a number of countries, including yours, have adopted it. -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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oagwood Veteran user Pleasant Hill, CA 396 Posts
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I think the guys fundamental understanding of what intellecutal property is is lacking.
when he said that if you had a soda and wanted to give it away would you contact the manufacturer? of course not, you are dealing with the physical properties of the soda, the can, and the tasty liquid contents. however if you knew the secret receipe used and the method used to create the tasty beverage and you tried to give that away, you would be in a lot of trouble. while the contents are physical, the idea of combining them and the methodology in the combination are not physical, but are the intellectual properties that the object contains. bob, I think you did a great job of setting that guy on the straight and narrow. oliver |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27469 Posts
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Oliver, we have not heard from the "newguy". I for one won't take sides in this, and instead post some suggestions about things we can do.
Given that most people don't offer cogent and forthright arguments in casual discourse, there is much to question and discuss in the correspondance as presented. We can use the meta-model to ask questions from "newguy"'s side and still only come to some questions "newguy" may not wish to hear much less answer. Where I lose some comfort in this is how a guy down on his luck would be helped by that one trick as opposed to so some help getting things together. It takes a while to get a new trick into action, and someone who is not doing well needs to focus upon making things better for their family. I was not entirely joking in my post about respecting inventors and respecting their intellectual property. Joe's Zombie, Alan's chop-chop cup, my coins across, Peter's wildcard... long list of things that folks take for granted. Likewise outright "borrowing and publishing without permission" is there in the Hoffmann books, the Germaine books and his tricks and Expert Card Technique. What then? For now my thoughts go to "newguy" who may actually be asking for help to change his lot for the better. How then to help?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » An interesting exchange regarding Intellectual Property Rights. (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jul 27, 2005 12:05 am 
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