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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » An interesting exchange regarding Intellectual Property Rights. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bob Johnston
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I just received (and corresponded) with a new forum member that PM’d me.

I have removed his name and age references to protect his identity, but I think it gives an interesting insight into how some people view Intellectual Property Rights.

New user:
Quote:
Hi,
I am just starting out studying magic ( a newbie). I love things that involve money, such as dollar bill tricks and coin vanishes, etc..etc. Anything and everything I learn has to be free because of my financial situation. So far, another magician gave me copy of Modern Coin Magic by JB Bobo. I study it and practise the concealments and vanishes in it.

Because I love things involving the use of money, I was wandering if you would be willing to teach me 'Misleading Mislead'? I will not reveal the secret to anyone, and I will practise it religiously. Please?

Thank You.
Wellington


My response:
Quote:
Why wouldn’t you want to learn it from the video that the creator has available?
Bob


New user
Quote:
I would love to learn it from the video, but unfortunately, I can not afford the video because of my financial status. Everything I learn about magic comes from someone teaching me the trick, or from the internet for free, or from books from the library.

That is the reason, I ask you if you will teach me 'Misleading Mislead', please?

Thank You.
Wellington


My response:
Quote:
You are 3X years old and want other people to spend their money purchasing trick so you can freeload them for nothing.

The forum is for the exchange of ideas between magicians not a place to cheat creators out of their fair income.

I can not help you.

Bob


New user
Quote:
No, I am 3X not 3X, anyways.....I am not asking for other people to spend their money so I can freeload a trick off of them.

But I do beleive in helping people that are down on their luck. And for your information, all my money (from disabilty check) goes to put food on the table and clothes on our back and pay our bills for me and my wife.

I can barely walk and my wife can not walk at all, so when I want books from the library, I call a friend who works there and he brings them to me when gets off of work. If I need food from a store, I call the store and my cousin who works their comes and gets my money on his break and does the shopping for us.

We only have internet access so we can pay our bills online, otherwise we would have no way of paying them.

And I would have been willing to do website work for you in exchange for teaching me the trick. I didn't state that up front, and for that I am sorry.

But before you go passing judgement on someone and calling them a freeloader, you should find out their situation first.

I do not want you to feel sorry for me or my wife, I don't. But the way you said what you said to me, allmost made me turn away from magic altogether. But then I realized, one bad apple doesn't make the whole tree bad!

Just one last thing again, Don't judge someone until you have walked in their shoes, because someday you just might have too!

Have a nice day!
Wellington


My response:
Quote:
You must think your situation in life is unique.

I live on Social Security alone and am legally blind. I can not drive and must depend on others to get everywhere.

This does not give me the right to steal from people that have taken the time to develop a trick and are trying to make a living by selling the trick.

Bob


New user
Quote:
No, I do not think my situation in life is unique. I realize that everyone has problems, and a lot are worse then mine.

If you are truly blind, can not drive and must depend on others, I do not condemn, I actually APPLUADE YOU. You have found a way to live life, and that is great. I know a blind man who actually has a specially made braille keyboard on a computer. His wife reads everything on the computer to him, and he use the special keyboard to type. So I will not doubt that you are blind.

But you are accusing me of wanting to steal and/or asking you to steal from people that have taken the time to develop a trick and are trying to make a living by selling the trick, that simply is not true! I am not, nor am I asking you or anyone else to steal anything from anyone! I was only asking you to help someone who is aspiring to become a magician (me), and who is down on their luck (me), to teach me a trick, to help me on my way.

Let me ask you this...When someone shows YOU a trick, one that you did not pay for, do you go hunt down the original creator of the trick and offer him/her money for it? I highly doubt it! If someone buys a can/bottle of pepsi or coke, or even a cup of coffie, they are entitled to drink it. But what about when they GIVE that can/bottle of pepsi or coke, or cup of coffie to you, do you go to the manufacture of the drink and give the manufacture the money for it? I highly doubt it! I don't know if you smoke or not, but if you do, if you ask someone for an extra cigarette/cigar and they give it to you, they paid for them, but you didn't. Do you go to the tobacco manufacture and give them the money for that one cigarrete/cigar? I highly doubt it! Do you understand my point, I hope so.

In life, you get what you give, not what you can buy! If you don't understand and agree with that statement, you must be a very bitter individual. Now I don't mean anything mean, bad, or hateful by that, it's just simply the truth.

Maybe YOU DON'T beleive in helping a stranger when they are down on their luck, that is your choice, and I will not try to change your mind. I on the other hand, I do beleive in helping a stranger who is down on his/her luck, EVEN IF MY SITUATION IS WORSE then theirs.

There is an old saying that was taught to me by my grandfather when I was just a child, and it has been passed down from generation to generation in my family, it goes like this...."Follow the SPIRIT of the law, not the letter of the law. For the SPIRIT of the law will guide you through life, but the letter of the law will lead you to destruction." I also beleive in what my mother told me from some passages from the bible...."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "It is more blessed to give then to receive".

I am not trying to put you down, bad mouth you, or disrespect you for not wanting to show me the trick. That is your choice, and I DO RESPECT you for that! All I am trying to say to you, don't close your eyes to someone just because your situation is bad, and don't think the actuality of something is the best and only way.

I do not wish to argue with you on this, that was not my point and is not my point. I asked, you said no, I respect you for that. But please stop disrespecting me, ok?

I will leave it as it is and bother you no further. I will you all the best, and may you prosper in life.

Have a nice day!
Wellington


Quote:
This subject (intellectual property rights) has been discussed on the forum many times. If you don’t get it, you just don’t get it.

Legaly blind is a legal and medical term that means I have very little vision. I type this PM in word at 36 points and copy and past it into the forum. Everything I see is blurry and dark. I still do shows and teach magic, but I do not steal property from others.

I demonstrate magic in a magic shop (without pay) every week. I teach people magic all the time, I have for 45 years, BUT I DO NOT TEACH SOMETHING PROTECTED BY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS. No reputable magician does.

If someone comes to me after they PURCHASE a trick, and ask for help in performing it, I will teach them without pay.

Your analogy (can of soda) is bogus, you clearly do not understand intellectual property rights.

If you purchase “Misleading Mislead” and turn around and share it with others, YOU ARE A ORDINARY THIEF.



Bob
gdw
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Some people . . .
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
kregg
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"If everybody skims from the top, we all end up at the bottom" CW
Kregg
POOF!
flobiwan
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Here's an idea. Wellington said he'd be willing to do website work in exchange for being taught the trick. You could always take him up on the offer and, in lieu of payment, order Misleading Misled for him and have it sent to his address. Then it would be no problem if he asked for pointers. This is of course assuming you had work for him to do.

Fredd
Bob Johnston
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Flobiwan:


I do not do website work. And, I would not be interested in working with someone that so completely misunderstands what stealing is and is not.

"New User" somehow thinks there are exceptions to your right of intellectual property rights. I do not.

Note: "new user" thanks me by using my name at the end of his posts (PM's) and it can be confusing.

Wellington

Bob
Larry Barnowsky
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Some in the current generation raised on MP3 players, internet downloads, and Ipods have become rather insensitive to intellectual property rights (some of the older generation too). They feel music like air is free, and once they have it, they can share it with anyone. Quality music and magic both require creative minds. Those who create should be entitled to payment for their work. If it's all given away for free, those creative individuals will divert their endeavors to ones that properly compensate them. They'll be gone and all we'll be left with is more mediocre music and magic.
Bob Johnston
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Larry:
You are right with one note, if you please.

I use (and depend on) my (HP) 40GIG iPod for all my NPR programs.

I have never downloaded any unpaid for music.

Bob
Jonathan Townsend
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I wish the quid-pro-quo approach had been tried with the new guy. Finding a way to trade value for value enhances the lives of both parties.

Nice to hear some folks might have read some Ayn Rand. I hope you also put down that fan of three coins and disavowed all who have touhed a certain "borrowed" coin trick. Likewise have spit upon the Hoffmann books and burned your copies of Expert Card Technique.

Honest collectivists irk me less than hypocrites.

If you really want to swear off stolen stuff, check youself first. When you are done makeing sure you are living by your own standards, then perhaps others might follow your example.

Okay, shower time here, I seem to stink of something.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
DaveB
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The problem with his "buying a can of coke" for someone argument, is that you bought a can of coke.. but have already drank it! Yes if you are feeling charitable you could buy him a coke, or go to a magic store and buy him 'Misleading Mislead'(for $24.95), although I can think of several other charities that would benefit more from your donation.

By teaching someone a trick, you are essentially making a copy of it.. or stealing another can of coke.
Jonathan Townsend
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If I felt it would truly help someone advance in their studies to know something, I might GIVE them a book.

A trick though? With all the goodies to be found in the library already, it seems unlikely a trick would make a difference. The local libraries have all sorts of books. Lybrary.com sells many classic texts full of goodies too.

Besides, If someone really wanted to get moving in magic, I would give them a copy of The Stars of Magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
bootweasel
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Quote:
I might GIVE them a book


How is this different to giving an individual the instructions to a trick? We are after all paying for the secrets, not the media that contains them.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 08:19, bootweasel wrote:...We are after all paying for the secrets, not the media that contains them.


Hardly, wait till you find out the price of secrets.

What you can do is buy a product in a market that uses the word "secret" to offer some glamour to the consumer.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bob Johnston
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 08:19, bootweasel wrote:
Quote:
I might GIVE them a book


How is this different to giving an individual the instructions to a trick? We are after all paying for the secrets, not the media that contains them.


Two points, hear is the diference.

One:
If you give three people books, you have PURCHASED three books. That is the only compensation the author seeks.

Two:
The trick in question HAS NO GIMMICK. The trick is the secret, the secret is the trick. To share it is stealing.

If someone purchases the trick (the secret) you can help them learn how to do the trick without stealing.

Bob
bootweasel
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Okay, perhaps a little mis-understanding.

The situation that I was alluding to, is where the book given is your own copy. Not an additional copy, bought for the purpose.

In addition, I assumed that the trick in question has no gimmick, therefore written instructions, whether bought seperately or as part of a collection of works inside of a book, amount to the same thing - the secret.

I should have been clearer.
Partizan
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And if said book is in library for public consumption? You look inside and see it has been borrowed over 30 times. This is 29 times that the author looses out.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain
Larry Barnowsky
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The magic books we are referring to are not found in public libraries. If you buy a limited edition magic book (not sold in bookstores etc) you are certainly entitled to sell it to another magician. What we don't want to have happen (in the extreme)is magic books to be distributed freely in a file sharing scheme like what is done for music on-line as with Napster. It's not fair to the author of the book and it trivializes and demeans the value of the secrets and techniques these books contain.
bishthemagish
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I do not think the author would loose out if the library purchased the book. Often I have read books from the library and then after that gone out and purchased the book.

When I was starting magic I started learning from three different books. The stars of magic, Erdnase and close up card magic. I met other magicians and one I was lucky enough to me was a guy from Wisconsin Bob Rath. He showed me Christ's Aces out of the Cliff Green book. I put the book on my must buy list and went out to get it the next day!

Well I forgot most of the routine the next day so I added some stuff and changed the ending. And then to get the performance rights to do it I went out and purchased the book. After reading it I decided I liked my way of doing it because it was better for me. So I never did the routine Henry Christ’s way. But I got the book because I wanted the performance rights.

The point is that I feel that there should be some kind of an investment made by the student for the ideas.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
JimMaloney
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Quote:
On 2005-07-28 14:56, Partizan wrote:
And if said book is in library for public consumption? You look inside and see it has been borrowed over 30 times. This is 29 times that the author looses out.


You may wish to look up information on Public Lending Rights. While not universal, a number of countries, including yours, have adopted it.

-Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
oagwood
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I think the guys fundamental understanding of what intellecutal property is is lacking.

when he said that if you had a soda and wanted to give it away would you contact the manufacturer? of course not, you are dealing with the physical properties of the soda, the can, and the tasty liquid contents.

however if you knew the secret receipe used and the method used to create the tasty beverage and you tried to give that away, you would be in a lot of trouble. while the contents are physical, the idea of combining them and the methodology in the combination are not physical, but are the intellectual properties that the object contains.

bob, I think you did a great job of setting that guy on the straight and narrow.

oliver
Jonathan Townsend
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Oliver, we have not heard from the "newguy". I for one won't take sides in this, and instead post some suggestions about things we can do.

Given that most people don't offer cogent and forthright arguments in casual discourse, there is much to question and discuss in the correspondance as presented. We can use the meta-model to ask questions from "newguy"'s side and still only come to some questions "newguy" may not wish to hear much less answer.

Where I lose some comfort in this is how a guy down on his luck would be helped by that one trick as opposed to so some help getting things together. It takes a while to get a new trick into action, and someone who is not doing well needs to focus upon making things better for their family.

I was not entirely joking in my post about respecting inventors and respecting their intellectual property. Joe's Zombie, Alan's chop-chop cup, my coins across, Peter's wildcard... long list of things that folks take for granted. Likewise outright "borrowing and publishing without permission" is there in the Hoffmann books, the Germaine books and his tricks and Expert Card Technique. What then?

For now my thoughts go to "newguy" who may actually be asking for help to change his lot for the better. How then to help?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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