The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » An interesting exchange regarding Intellectual Property Rights. (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Howard,

I was looking at a car as a thing which for administrative and licensing purposes is also the VIN. The car has a title which lists the VIN. What if magic items came with ID numbers, were registered and licensed for performance?

The parallel between what you do in your own home and driveway and den for magic seem pretty close.

Jonathan
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Steve Martin
View Profile
Inner circle
1119 Posts

Profile of Steve Martin
Howard,

I would be interested to hear what you mean by "religious morality versus secular morality" and the distinction you see in those two terms. My view is that those two terms are redundant. I think that it is a little disappointing that you seem to be reluctant to continue with your point of view following my last post. My mentioning God ought not to deter you from pursuing your line of reasoning. There is no reason why we should find a different forum to continue (as you suggest) based on that. If you feel there is more to say, you are free to say it, as I do not agree that my post has suddenly taken this discussion out of scope. However, what I do acknowledge is that as we talk about these things (as much of the thread has already been about) it opens up some areas which are probably best discussed in person rather than via a messaging forum. I don't spend huge amounts of time here... I dip in from time to time! It is on that basis that the discussion should either continue or not. However, I do stand by what I have already said.
Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.
Albert Einstein
bsears
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
1035 Posts

Profile of bsears
Great discussion guys. Rational and unheated debate - I'm in shock.

I think a distinction really needs to be made here in terms of knowledge verus product. As a teacher, if I know something somone has originated and published, it is often my JOB to give, freely, to my students as much of that information as is applicable to their educations. And the creator/discoverer/inventor never sees a penny!

Saleable, tangible products are different.
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
That issue of distinction between knowledge and product is critical in this discussion.

My feeling is that in magic, the knowledge is the product.
I also suggest that the expression of that knowlege in an artifact or its inclusion into a scripted work for performance is in this case a functional definition for a derivative work.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Quote:
On 2006-04-12 23:09, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Howard,

I was looking at a car as a thing which for administrative and licensing purposes is also the VIN. The car has a title which lists the VIN. What if magic items came with ID numbers, were registered and licensed for performance?

The parallel between what you do in your own home and driveway and den for magic seem pretty close.

Jonathan





Hi, Jonathan,

The problem I see with your assertion is that the vin number, in and of itself, serves no purpose except to, as you stated above, trace the vehicle as it progresses from owner to owner and in the event of theft or accident. Other than insuring the identity of the vehicle, it has nothing to do with how the vehicle is used or under what circumstances it is re-sold(other than to insure that if I sell said vehicle to you, I don't try to push another vehicle off in its's place)

Assigning a number of this sort to magic items would, in the absence of any laws prohibiting the re-sale of those items, serve no use beyond allowing the seller, perhaps, to know where the item is being performed, by whom and when the item is re-sold. It defintely does not, in my opinion, speak to the morality of re-selling the material.

I have seen items for sale by magician/inventors who attach a number to the item and then claim that they will not sell any updates or additions to the item unless the purchaser can provide proof, through the use of this registraton number, that they are the original buyer.
Personally, I feel this to be a gimmick to try to deter people from re-selling the item and to make potential buyers feel that they are getting more value for their money by joining the "elite" group of people who have already purchased this item.
It's a good marketing gimmick...but really serves no other purpose. I also feel that it is completely useless due to the fact that it is perfectly legal to re-sell magic items.

I really hate to bring up the legal aspect of this whole topic because, as I stated, I'm really not qualified to do more than speculate in that area. I bring it up here only because I believe that your point about the vin number would only be viable within the realm of legalities.


Thanks,
Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Quote:
On 2006-04-13 01:12, Steve Martin wrote:
Howard,

I would be interested to hear what you mean by "religious morality versus secular morality" and the distinction you see in those two terms. My view is that those two terms are redundant. I think that it is a little disappointing that you seem to be reluctant to continue with your point of view following my last post. My mentioning God ought not to deter you from pursuing your line of reasoning. There is no reason why we should find a different forum to continue (as you suggest) based on that. If you feel there is more to say, you are free to say it, as I do not agree that my post has suddenly taken this discussion out of scope. However, what I do acknowledge is that as we talk about these things (as much of the thread has already been about) it opens up some areas which are probably best discussed in person rather than via a messaging forum. I don't spend huge amounts of time here... I dip in from time to time! It is on that basis that the discussion should either continue or not. However, I do stand by what I have already said.





Hi, Steve,

As you can see, nor do I spend much time on this forum. After a year, I still have not reached 100 posts and if you look at my posts, you will see that most of them pertain to selling/buying or discussions of this very topic. I am generally a strong opponent of the internet and especially forums and chat rooms. However, I do have my weaknesses and one of them is this topic.(Believe it or not, I had to have my daughter show me how to access and use this forum a year ago)

I have to reiterate my belief that this is not the forum for going into where our moral beliefs come from. For me to say that my moral belief structure does not hold re-selling magic items as wrong and providing arguments to support my assertions falls, I believe, into the realm of this forum. Going into much detail as to where my beliefs come from, I believe, takes us beyond the scope of this forum and into the scope of philosophy and religion. I'm sorry, but I just cannot do that on this forum because we are then using it as our own "forum" to espouse our religious/philosophical views.
The important thing to keep in mind is that I am not at all reluctant to continue the discussion, I just don't feel justified in doing in on this forum.

Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Correction, I have 100 posts.

D'OH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Correction. I have 101 posts


D'OH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Correction. I have.....

Hey, What the...........it never stops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Quote:
On 2006-04-13 13:30, bsears wrote:
Great discussion guys. Rational and unheated debate - I'm in shock.

I think a distinction really needs to be made here in terms of knowledge verus product. As a teacher, if I know something somone has originated and published, it is often my JOB to give, freely, to my students as much of that information as is applicable to their educations. And the creator/discoverer/inventor never sees a penny!

Saleable, tangible products are different.




Hi, (sorry, I don't know your name)

Your post is directly in line with an assertion that I made earlier. Many people believe that it is immoral to continue to use material learned from a certain medium(magic videos in our thread)after having sold or given away the medium.
But these same people refuse to apply that same logic to other areas outside of magic.
By implication, in my opinion, it must also be immoral to continue to earn an income teaching information from sources if you no longer own the sources..in this case that source being the textbooks and other materials from which you learned the material.
From a moral point of view, I think I've made a pretty good case for the similarity.
Once the information /theory/idea becomes a solid, tangible object it is no different from any other object that is available for sale or re-sale.

Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
bsears
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
1035 Posts

Profile of bsears
Howard - exactly.

Just because I sold most of my college textbooks back to the school bookstore doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to benefit financially from what I read in them. Nor is the next student who purchases them going to pay the author a dime, yet will receive all of the knoweldge of the author's work.
magicdave777
View Profile
New user
54 Posts

Profile of magicdave777
Quote:
On 2006-04-18 23:31, bsears wrote:
Howard - exactly.

Just because I sold most of my college textbooks back to the school bookstore doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to benefit financially from what I read in them. Nor is the next student who purchases them going to pay the author a dime, yet will receive all of the knoweldge of the author's work.


I agree!
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Not the case with magic,
where the value is in the secret
and the grant of performing license is (for now )
given as part of the purchase price for the item.
Magicdom takes a somewhat academic stance on derivitive works.

Consider by contrast how things work when you buy a copy of the script for a play.
You have not bought the right to perform the play in paying theater.
Nor have you bought the right to sell your own variation.

Some appear to be confusing the intent of a textbook, which is to communicate ideas which are public domain in our society at large
with a magic text which is intended to communicate TRADE SECRETS to those who are willing to accept that fiduciary responsibility.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
bsears
View Profile
Inner circle
Cincinnati, Ohio
1035 Posts

Profile of bsears
Jonathan - I understand you point, but I disagree with you that somehow magic is outside of other professions in terms of the sale of knowledge and skills involved in the trade. Almost all careers have a structure of those who wish to learn and those who wish to provide them with the knowledge for a fee.

For example, the path for a musician, carpenter, doctor, or computer programmer would not look, in my mind, all that different from a magician in terms of the desire to obtain knowledge, the search for those who have it, the exchange of money to provide the knowledge, and the student's eventual profit from the knowledge. Only in magic do we get hung up on the (often ***ized) flow of money from the source to the student.
Howard Coberly
View Profile
Loyal user
Irvine, California
239 Posts

Profile of Howard Coberly
Quote:
On 2006-04-18 23:31, bsears wrote:
Howard - exactly.

Just because I sold most of my college textbooks back to the school bookstore doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to benefit financially from what I read in them. Nor is the next student who purchases them going to pay the author a dime, yet will receive all of the knoweldge of the author's work.





Exactly! This is my point. You can morally continue to benefit from the knowledge gained from those textbooks just as I can morally continue to benefit from knowledge learned from a magic video even if Iknow longer own the video. I believe this to be true of both tricks and knowledge learned from those sources.

The argument of those who disagree with me on this is that once a person sells the item, he can no longer morally benefit from the information it contained, ie., use the information.

Thanks for the response!
Howard
"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 12:42, bsears wrote:
Jonathan - I understand you point, but I disagree with you that somehow magic is outside of other professions in terms of the sale of knowledge and skills involved in the trade. ...


The perception of magic depends upon LACK of that knowledge.

When the knowledge is present, one can admire the skill or delivery of the performance, but the magic is gong.

Hence, magic is unlike any other profession or art.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On 2006-04-22 12:42, bsears wrote:
Jonathan - I understand you point, but I disagree with you that somehow magic is outside of other professions in terms of the sale of knowledge and skills involved in the trade. ...


The perception of magic depends upon LACK of that knowledge.

When the knowledge is present, one can admire the skill or delivery of the performance, but the magic is gong.

I argue that magic is unlike any other profession or art.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Let me add a couple of thoughts to this, even though it has strayed quite far from the original post.

1) There is a type of protection for Intellectual Property that has not been covered here. That is the "trade secret." If you have an item that has not been published before, you own it. Under most legal systems, the mere performance of an item, such as an illusion, does not constitute publication. However, sale of that item does constitute publication. If the item is not covered by copyright or patent, it is now, legally speaking, in the public domain.

2) You cannot copyright or patent an idea. That is specifically forbidden in US copyright and patent law. You can copyright or patent manifestations of an idea. You can trademark images associated with an idea. But you can't copyright or patent the idea (for example) of a "no smoking magic act."

3) Many tricks, illusions, etc. have been patented. Sometimes patents hold up, sometimes they don't.

4) In the example of the magician purchasing a trick and teaching it to an audience of 10,000 at a magic convention or other gathering, there are a couple of considerations.
a) I don't know of any gathering that large that has taken place anyhwhere. Smile
If the example refers to P&T's "exposure" of the TT silk vanish, bear in mind that only a handful of the people in the audience actually did the trick. The others just stuffed a hanky into their fists.
b) If you have ever lectured to a group of magicians, you know that half of them won't even like the trick. Another group won't understand it, even if it is so simple that a caveman could do it. Many of them will not have the props necessary, even if they are a rubberband, a TT and a red silk handkerchief.
c) While it may not be illegal to teach a trick of this type at a magic gathering without the permission of the originator, it is against the rules of every magical organization that I belong to. I would also run the risk of physical assault if I did such a thing. I may be able to have the person prosecuted, but I think any jury would acquit him. Smile

Regarding material in public libraries -- aside from Larry, I am one of the only ones who has posted who actually publishes books. I have donated copies of my books to the Magic Circle Library as well as our local magic club library. It has NEVER hurt the sales of any of my material. Why? Because people who are really interested in the stuff I have written will buy the book.

I recently learned that one of the books I was involved with, Paramiracles, is the book that is most often requested to be checked out of the Magic Circle library. Am I angry? No. Is Ted Lesley angry? No. The people who want to do the material in the book will buy a copy?

Anyone want to buy a book?
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Steve Martin
View Profile
Inner circle
1119 Posts

Profile of Steve Martin
Quote:
c) While it may not be illegal to teach a trick of this type at a magic gathering without the permission of the originator, it is against the rules of every magical organization that I belong to. I would also run the risk of physical assault if I did such a thing. I may be able to have the person prosecuted, but I think any jury would acquit him.


I agree. And therein lies the point I was making earlier. It has nothing to do with so-called "religious" and "secular" morality (such as Howard was proposing).
Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking.
Albert Einstein
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27151 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On 2006-04-24 14:43, Bill Palmer wrote:... Paramiracles, is the book that is most often requested to be checked out of the Magic Circle library. Am I angry? No. Is Ted Lesley angry? No. The people who want to do the material in the book will buy a copy?

Anyone want to buy a book?


Yes, I did and did and enjoy looking through it at times. Wonderful book. Thanks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » An interesting exchange regarding Intellectual Property Rights. (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.16 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL