Maybe not the right place for this but I'll try. I am thinking about buying an endless chain routine. Outside of the SFS chain, are there any other good ones on the market? I've been looking for one on eBay but can't seem to find what I'm looking for?

I like the SFS chain but would love to compare it to a few others.

Have you seen the routine performed by Johnny Thompson on his Commercial Classics videos? I think but Im not sure that David Roth also has a routine to it aswell.
Happy Hunting,
Pauly Prestige

Yes, I have the JT DVDs and his routine is great! I'm looking for a chain though.

Check out Marc DeSouza Chain Gang at Camirand Academie of Magie. They had a decent chain, also.

SfS had some compelling arguments for their particular chain style, so no matter which way you go you should at least stay with the French Rope style. Aside from magic shop offerings, some malls have kiosk stores called something like "The Chainery" where you can buy chain by the foot. I doubt that they'll be able to do what SfS did and weave the ends together. You'll probably have to settle for some sort of jump ring or clasp.

That is true Dave. I have used mine for so long I don't think I remember which was Marc's and which was S4S.

I have the DeSouza Chain and video. I also have the SFS DVD.
My chain seems fine. It's long. Which is good in case you venture
into other displays. the chain gang video has some neat history in the presentations and a variety of displays.

But only the SFS DVD will bring the con to life for you.
The SFS DVD is absolutely the best of the two.

My concern was always that if the spectators think they cannont win,
they will become immediately disinterested. The SFS DVD gives the
feeling that it is really a 50/50 proposition every time.

If the spectators are not convinced that it is truly 50/50, the trick
is NO GOOD. A waste!

It is NOT like the shell game where they try to catch you doing something.
It's the opposite.

For this effect, I say....
SFS. SFS. SFS.

The S4S chain is steel French Rope chain that has been very heavily gold-plated. You can buy chain by the inch as someone suggested above, and have a jeweler connect the ends for you for five or ten dollars. Chain similar to the School for Scoundrels chain should go for between $1.50 and $2.50 an inch. You will need 60 inches or 84 inches for the De Sousa length chain.

It will not have as thick a gold plating, but that is good because otherwise you could not have the ends woven without cracking the gold. Our chain is plated after the chains are formed into loops, which enables us to put on such a heavy coating.

You will need five feet of chain for the standard hour glass figure, and if you want to do the three and four loop figures from Fred Lowe and George Blake that DeSouza teaches, you will need seven feet.

The S4S does not recommend doing those more complicated figures--it waters down the effect in our opinion. If the spectator can't win choosing between two loops, why would he think he would have any better luck with four loops to choose from?

Further, there is no way to prove with two or three loops that one of the loops would actually hold fast, so the audience is likely to be suspicious of the set up.

The "history" of the chain that De Souza teaches is just part of the patter--none of it is meant to be taken as "true." The only historical patterns with "Fast and Loose" that we know of before George Blake's book in the forties is the hour glass pattern of "On the Barrelhead" and the folded and rolled belt of "Pricking the Garter."

DeSouza's chain is brass and very lightweight. It will tarnish very quickly.

The S4S chain is guaranteed for life not to chip or tarnish.

The cheapest way to go and get a good chain is to find the French rope steel chain and have a jeweler connect it into a loop. You can take this to a plating place and have it nickel or gold plated.

Even cheaper, you can use ball chain, such as used for lighting and plumbing fixtures, and have it connected into an endless loop by a jeweler, or using one of the fasteners used to connect or extend that type of chain. This can also be plated if you like.

I use a chain I got from the dollar store.

I all you want is chain, go to your hardware store. They have a rack of chain. Get the ball chain, for flusing tolets or pulling light switches. This is what was used way back when. They sell connectors also to form a loop.

So, unless you're going with ball chain with it's inherent disadvantages, at $1 an inch you're looking at $60 for inferior quality chain. Then add $5 or $10 for attaching the ends, and you've paid twice as much for an inferior product. SfS sells better quality chain at a much lower price.

Hmmmm... What to do...

Whit won't say it, so I will. Go with the SfS chain and you won't be disappointed. And go out to dinner with the money you saved.

I am now sure I had Whit and Marc's chains confused I've been using it a long time and don't bother with any other.

Whit it is the French Chain that works so well for the routine I sent you because it looks like jewelry and contrasts so starkly against the damaged wood and pewter crucifix I use with it.

Definitely go with the SFS cjain and you won't be disappointed.

Thanks, Dave. There are many different ways of looking at these issues. If I were working the streets, I would probably use our nickle-plated chain. At a trade-show, the our gold chain has certain advantages. Not everyone has the same needs.

The S4S products are really designed to meet the needs of only two performers--me and Chef Anton. We don't sell expensive products because we feel that we will make more money that way. Our products are expensive because they are the best for our work, and we made them first for ourselves.

They meet our needs, and sometimes finding the perfect product is finding one that is more expensive to obtain.

The Colorado Silver Shells are designed for me. They are the ones that I use in my work. Before that, the Golden Shells were designed for me--they are what I used in my work. The Street Shells were something I needed for walk-around magic, to make it easier to carry the shells in my side coat pocket. All of these shells were cast from the original real walnut shell that I puttied and carved as the perfect shell to work with our "Perfect Pea."

All of our products are actually designed for our own work, to create for ourselves the props and gimmicks that we wanted to use--with all the features, advantages, and the quality of appearance and design that we insist on. Chef and I have high standards for this, our work for major corporations demands it.

So, yes, our Gold "Fast and Loose" chain is a good value, and I think it is also the finest available chain for the effect. It is a fairly priced retail product, and you would not easily be able to make anything similar for less unless you are able to purchase in quantity at wholesale.

I can't think of anyway to improve it other than to make it out of solid gold, and that would add a layer of security problems to the use of the chain that would not be worth the advantages to me.

You can get just as much entertainment value out of a piece of ball chain. We would not want to pull out a piece of bathroom hardware at one of the fancy corporate events we want to work for. The ball chain does not lie flat and stay in position well, the French Rope does. We want something that lasts forever, and will continue to look good without much upkeep, and gold does not require polishing like silver (That is why we went with nickle instead of silver for our less expensive chain). Also, the gold is more likely to please and attract the eye, especially of ladies who are often more interested in jewelry than men.

String, rope and the flat chain and the ball chain are less confusing to the eye, and it is easier to follow the lay of the chain with these than with the more confusing to the eye design of the French rope.

All of these as well as some other considerations that we discuss in our book and DVD go into our decisions on how the props should be constructed.

I was shown a beautiful gold-plated chain that was very similar to ours at a magic lecture I was giving. The magician said he was selling them at half the price that our chain was going for. I asked him how he could make a profit on them. He said he didn't, that he just made them for fun and sold them to other magicians for cost. Cutting and linking the chain is a lot of work, though, he agreed. I wished him luck, and secretly, a better business model.

So, we will always go for the best possible prop to work in our usual venues--regardless of cost.

As Gazzo says, "A pro can't afford cheap props."

BTW, my price comments were based on my purchase of the nickle plated chain. Even with your "cheap" chain it's far superior to anything else I could have made up myself.

Admittedly, I was reluctant to pay that much even for the nickle chain sight unseen, but now that I've seen it and used it... WOW!

My hardware store does not charge a dollar an inch, more like a foot. So for six bucks you have a chain to do the work, I got the connector for free. It all depends on your needs as Whit Haydn says. Most all routines come with a chain. So if you do not have the George Blake book from Mickey Hades then you will need a routine and will get the chain with it.

Doc Wayne put out his 'Chump Chain' don't know if it is still available. Come with audio tape of the routine. I think the language is a bit harsh.

Uh, William, he said "UNLESS you are going with ball chain."

That means that the chain he uses costs $1.00 an inch, not the ball chain. At least that's the way I read it.

One of the disadvantages of ball chain is that it is limited to how sharp a bend it can make.

But at least you can use it to flus a tolet.

If one wants to go cheap or in a usable form for a medieval act you can use a loop tied from a long suede shoelace. I buy suede lace by the spool and and 60" would cost less than $1.

So $1, $10, or $60 it is all about your goals. Whit and Chef lay out their's very well in their book.

Or choice in props. I feel the routine and entertainment value to the audience is much more important than props. The Misers dream can be done with a sand bucket. The shell game with bottle caps.

Find what fits YOU and make it work.

Glenn, the props serve the goals not the other way around.

I'm a bit new to this - but is fast and loose the con game where a chain is looped on a table, and the mark puts his finger in one of several loops. When the chain is pulled, if the chain stays around his finger the mark wins.

If Fast and Loose isn't this game, what eactly is fast and loose? Also does anyone know the name of the game I am referring to? thanks!