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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts 
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On 2005-08-16 11:09, Whit Haydn wrote: Hope I'm not on your list, Whit.  |
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magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 11:32, bishthemagish wrote: That side, Glenn. |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 17:50, magicalaurie wrote: Sorry I am not on anyone's side. In magic I just try to improve and learn as I go. I still feel that it is OK if a student changes and adds original material to any magic effect - at any time - including when they are just starting out - and including the classics. And perform magic they way that they want to. Experimenting with magic is one of the ways that students can improve the their creativity skills. Many students don’t succeed at this at the start but by being creative and having the fun of being creative - it begets more creativity. Over time and performance they and everyone learns! And are better magicians as the skills improve!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 10:41, MajesticWizard wrote:... I can better prepare myself to understand the nuances of the craft of magic tricks. To prepare is NOT to do. To understand is NOT to do. To craft magic tricks is NOT to envision or perform, though perhaps to manufacture. The nuances of manufacture are NOT directly related to the artistic conception of routines nor to the invention of new methods. Are you sure you want the muses whispering suggestions in your ears, showing you visions of possibilities for things that simply don't exist? Would you settle for their help in making things that you would find useful?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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MajesticWizard New user Lakewood, WA - USA 58 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 18:41, Jonathan Townsend wrote: LOL! Of course I want muses whispering in my ear...that would be the whole point, right? Creating a trick is the perhaps the easy part, once you get the hang of it I guess. Coming up with the idea for a trick is the greater challenge overall. I might have trouble just getting the mental juices flowing...but my creative side I'm sure could help me.
- Shawn
"Explore your world, its waiting for you". |
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MajesticWizard New user Lakewood, WA - USA 58 Posts
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Are there any DVDs out there on trick creations? I was thinking about this the other day, that if there were instructional DVDs on this topic, that would be helpful. Grand stage or close-up...would not matter. Just looking to open my options a little bit by seeing what is out there.
If you have any suggestions, feel free to express them. Thanks. :wavey:
- Shawn
"Explore your world, its waiting for you". |
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JohnLamberti Elite user Los Angeles, CA 420 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 19:35, MajesticWizard wrote: What sort of content would you envision on a DVD like this? What would the chapter headings be titled? Chapter 1: How to have an idea. Chapter 2: Once you have an idea, here is what you're supposed to do with it. I'll assert my point again. One can not be taught how to be creative. One can be taught how to more effectively channel their creativity and ideas, but I hold that one can never be taught simply how to have an idea. So just keep daydreaming and trying new things that come into your head. Eventually you will (or won't) come up with ideas on your own. :) |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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A couple of thoughts on creativity and listening to the muses...
1) Reading is fundamental 2) Listening is important 3) Doing the things you are propelled/compelled/shown can be productive. 0) Getting quiet so you can hear or see what is shown is where the process starts. Even in a noisy room and a busy life, if you are quiet inside, you can notice when something moves you.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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[quote]On 2005-08-16 20:48, JohnLamberti wrote:
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I'll assert my point again. One can not be taught how to be creative. One can be taught how to more effectively channel their creativity and ideas, but I hold that one can never be taught simply how to have an idea. So just keep daydreaming and trying new things that come into your head. Eventually you will (or won't) come up with ideas on your own. I looked up "idea" in the on-line Merriam-Webster's, and two of the definitions seem to fit this thread: 3 a obsolete : an image recalled by memory b : an indefinite or unformed conception c : an entity (as a thought, concept, sensation, or image) actually or potentially present to consciousness 4 : a formulated thought or opinion I both agree and disagree with you on this one, John. On one hand, I don't agree that a person cannot be taught how to be creative; being creative, in its most over-simplified definition, is simply the ability to recognize when something new goes thru the brain. And that's the key: recognizing it and not dismissing it. As you said, daydream away. It gets easier with time. You can teach somebody to do this as long as they're willing to learn. Little kids recognize new ideas (and play with them) all the time until they are taught that other things are more important. Those of us in creative professions simply didn't pay attention to this "grow up" lesson -- we were too busy daydreaming. I agree that you can't teach someone how to have an idea, but I'm taking that comment very, very literally. All of us have ideas all the time; we don't need to be taught. We just need to learn how to listen to, and trust, something that's built into us and that is so often and sadly repressed. Our imagination.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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MajesticWizard New user Lakewood, WA - USA 58 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 20:48, JohnLamberti wrote: ROFLROFLROFLROFL!!!!!!
- Shawn
"Explore your world, its waiting for you". |
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JohnLamberti Elite user Los Angeles, CA 420 Posts
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On 2005-08-16 23:45, georgefl38 wrote: Maybe I was being a bit too simplistic in my wording. Of course, everyone has ideas. Some people just have better ideas than others. Now, on to something else. Quote:
I both agree and disagree with you on this one, John. On one hand, I don't agree that a person cannot be taught how to be creative; being creative, in its most over-simplified definition, is simply the ability to recognize when something new goes thru the brain. And that's the key: recognizing it and not dismissing it. As you said, daydream away. It gets easier with time. This thought just hit me. We seem to be throwing the term "creative" around, but in a general sense, and I don't think it serves us well to do so. Obviously, we're all "creative" in one way or another. George, from what I read, you work designing sets for the theater (or something along those lines). I'm sure you are very creative when it comes to your work. I, on the other hand, make my living directing news and talk shows. The ability to come up with creative solutions to problems I encounter is a key part of my job. So, in that sense, we're both "creative." So, you wanna switch jobs? Probably not. The fact that we're both creative has no bearing on the fact that if someone hired me to design a set, I'd butcher the thing, and if someone hired you to direct a live television program, it would probably be a disaster. What I'm getting at is that one can be extremely creative in one field, but have all the talent of a pile of sand in another. So, when you say that someone can be taught to be creative, I agree, but with certain qualifications. You have to have some sort of natural ability that can be nurtured. For example, you probably received instruction at some point in your career on how to develop your skills as a set designer, but you had the basic knack for it to begin with. Since Jonathan is here, I'd like to get his thoughts on this. Jonathan, you've invented a trick or two in your lifetime...so here's a question. Did you ever find yourself asking this question...the one that started the thread in the first place. Quote:
I want to get to a point in my art, where I can develop my own tricks. However, I have no idea how to go about creating tricks from scratch. I can easily get tired of buying other people's tricks, and desire to learn how to make my own. Can someone suggest a starting place? Is there a way to learn the methodology of trick construction? ...or, did things simply just "make sense" to you (after, of course, you had mastered the basics). You often make mention of reading and listening being important, and I'm in agreement with you there. But suppose for a moment that you had existed in a vacuum...would you still have been creating tricks? What was your thought process like when you created your first visible coins across, for example? (Note, It's late and my wording might not be as clear as I want it to be...will clarify in the morning if need be  )
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts
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Atlanta's ring 9 has monthly themes for meetings, often bordering on the obscure. To list a few, Gasping for Air, Magic for Readers and Invisible Helpers. It's a great concept, often producing bombs. However, the diversity and the challenges the themes pose add a degree of creativity that forces some to think way outside the box. Plus it's a lot of fun.
If you read "Gasping for Air" and your first thought was balloon magic... you might be trapped inside the box. Check out IBM's Ring 9 sight, they keep archives (some) of ring reports and past themes. Sorry, I don't have the link. Kregg
POOF!
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On 2005-08-17 06:09, JohnLamberti wrote:...What was your thought process like when you created your first visible coins across, for example?... Here is what I recall (very short version). I was NOT in a vacuum. I had seen Slydini's One Coin Routine. I was working on the material from the Roth lecture and had been playing with the Ramsay trick "Three Coins in the Hat" for a good year. I had also been working on a simple one coin jump using two coins, and did not yet have the body and attention shift mechanics down. I also LIKED the copenetro mechanical trick, and also Blasted! I was in the high school Caféteria, with a couple of peer magicians. I told one that I admired the Shaw coin production and he did the thing for me. I had three silver coins at my left fingertips and he had three in angle palm and was about to to the production. FLASH. As he produced the first coin, I let one in the fan slide down and gave the other peer magician a BIG SMILE. I was watching the coins appear in his hand and letting the coins drop/slide down in mine. It was that simple. I thanked him and asked for an opinion on something that occurred to me and did my own horrible handling of the Shaw thing while letting the coins drop in the other hand. Then at the end, I slapped the three coins in display down to the mat and lapped the hidden coins from my other hand. I was told the transits looked okay, and that it would NEVER work in a place less noisy than a lunchroom. I then decided to find a mechanical method to manage the noise and did suggested a fingertip handling of the Roth Winged Silver, with the standard stop, fuss, display, then restart, and they liked it. I had a working variation of the Roth routine and a serious project. It was that simple. I liked the moment in the Slydini routine. I had a couple of other tricks that used three coins. I liked the coins across effect. I liked the copenetro. I liked the Shaw coin production. I liked the Ramsay style of coin handling. Notice there is very little here about me beyond my likes and admiration for the works of others. There was no ME in the process. I had the pieces and assembled them. What looked like a more serious challenge was noted and I started down a path of exploration. Let's just say I tried every gaff and clip and wax and whatever else I could get my hands on. But folks, that is not the creativity. The creativity came with recognizing the beauty of a coin production, the magic of the prop tricks Blasted! and Copenetro, and also the multiplying billiards. Oh, there was another theme running about my coin magic. The consensus at the magic shop was that I handle objects as if they are weightless. Some suggested I should work on magic with glimmers of light or wisps of smoke. David Roth once noted that my hands are sometimes wet with perspiration and joked that I might be able to do a ten minute act with live goldfish. So, not wanting to endanger fish, I stayed with the glimmers of light and wisps of smoke. Again, not much "me" there in the process. I liked some of what I saw and listened to some of what I was told.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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[quote]___________________
On 2005-08-17 06:09, JohnLamberti wrote: This thought just hit me. We seem to be throwing the term "creative" around, but in a general sense, and I don't think it serves us well to do so. The fact that we're both creative has no bearing on the fact that if someone hired me to design a set, I'd butcher the thing, and if someone hired you to direct a live television program, it would probably be a disaster. What I'm getting at is that one can be extremely creative in one field, but have all the talent of a pile of sand in another. So, when you say that someone can be taught to be creative, I agree, but with certain qualifications. You have to have some sort of natural ability that can be nurtured. For example, you probably recieved instruction at some point in your career on how to develop your skills as a set designer, but you had the basic knack for it to begin with. _________________________ /quote] Three good points, John. Although I was being very general with the term "creative," I do believe, from long experience, that people in general are creative. The problem is that most do not seem to realize it or accept it. I've taught adult drawing classes and supervised architects and illustrators, and I've seen it in all groups: some recognize it and some don't. Yes, even the illustrators. Second point, about switching jobs. See, here I disagree with you. If I tried to direct a news program, it wouldn't probably be a disaster. It'd DEFINITELY be a disaster.  Actually, one of the most fun jobs I've done was to design the set for a news program in upstate NY. They were great, and lots of fun, to work with. Became repeat clients.
As far as being creative in one field but challenged in another... sure, of course. That's where the training comes in. You probably went to broadcast journalism school. I spent seven years studying set design in college and grad school. And, yes, I like to think I had some natural ability for this even before I went to school. But the fact that I made up my mind to learn this field had a lot to do with the fact that I recognized a little bit of creativity in the first place. My professors just developed it and taught me specific techniques and skills. But if I hadn't accepted that I was a little bit creative, I may have gone into some other field where people don't normally think of themselves as creative. Even though, in a general sense, they are.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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I think we may have beaten the subject of creativity as far as it wants to go, and I certainly don't want to hog this thread. However, as you can tell (yeah, no kidding!) I'm very opinionated on the subject.
I wrote an essay on this some months back, illustrating just one example of why I believe people in general are far more creative than they very often give themselves credit for. It's on a blog I started and never "published." If you're interested, you can find it at http://www.garleduc.blogspot.com
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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saxmangeoff Veteran user Moscow, ID, USA 353 Posts
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Cool essay, George.
Reminds me of one of my favorite Picasso quotes: "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up." Geoff
"You must practice your material until it becomes boring, then practice it until it becomes beautiful." -- Bill Palmer
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JohnLamberti Elite user Los Angeles, CA 420 Posts
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[quote]On 2005-08-17 09:19, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
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David Roth once noted that my hands are sometimes wet with perspiration and joked that I might be able to do a ten minute act with live goldfish. So, not wanting to endanger fish, I stayed with the glimmers of light and wisps of smoke. First of all...that is one of the funniest things I've read on here in a while. I imagine you've got quite a good deadpan delivery in person, Jonathan. Second, thank you for that story. It was great, and a wonderful piece of magic history, if I do say so myself. Anyone doing a three-fly routine ought to read it, and appreciate the roots of the routine they're performing. And yes, George, I believe we may have beaten this dead horse so much that it may actually be coming back to life But a great discussion nonetheless.
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts
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I hadn't heard that one, Geoff, but I'm going to remember it! Thanks.
John, if that dead horse comes back to life I may be joining the Foreign Legion!
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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troller Loyal user 276 Posts
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If I give you a blank piece of paper and a pencil, what would you do? Would you draw a picture, write some words, or fold the paper and make an oragami?
Same problem with creating magic tricks. If I told you to create a magic trick, where would you start. Would you think of grandious big production magic such as making your car disappear, (I think you mentioned that!) or would you think of some improvement to an existing trick? Try and teach someone to sing that cannot, and it's gonna be a struggle. Not to say they can't learn the art of singing but it will take some doing and that mean doing it everyday. If you are a natural singer, then singing come naturally. If you are a creative person then thinking up ideas comes naturally. So if they don't then your creativity is lacking and needs training. Not to say that you can't be trained to be more creative, but it will still not be as easy as if you were creative in the first place. Why make a car disappear when most people today want the fast, in your face, magic that is overwellming and unbelievable. Sounds like someone needs some creative thinking training. Not trying to be mean here, just pointing out the obvious. Most people think they are creative, but a thought is not justifiable creativity. It's just a thought. Again, if I give you a blank piece of paper and a pencil, what would you do with it? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Try giving me a few million dollars instead.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Aug 16, 2005 09:47 pm 
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