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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » "Mind Games" by Andre Kole and McGregor (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Brian Turntime
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I've been reading this book over the last week. It's a real eye-opener to a valuable application of a magician's skill, as a debunker of deception within the church. Along with discussion of UFOs, psychics, and hypnosis, the authors discuss Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, WV Grant and other so-called faith healers.

James Randi is mentioned many times. Randi is one atheist who has helped American Christians out tremendously by exposing the crimes of Peter Popoff-- had he not been revealed as a phony, there would be many more copying his chicanery.

Anyone else read it? I do think he goes overboard in calling hypnotherapy an occultic practice... skeptical on that one.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
Mark Tripp
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Quote:
On 2005-08-15 13:09, Brian Turntime wrote:

Anyone else read it? I do think he goes overboard in calling hypnotherapy an occultic practice... skeptical on that one.


You should link that to the debate about hypnosis in Gospel shows.....
Brian Turntime
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YEha, I can't see using hypnosis in a gospel-themed show. MAYBE in a regular, entertainment only show at a church if it was very lighthearted.

For a BJ Harris' type supernatural experience training show, I could see some value there also.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
Michael J. Douglas
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Quote:
On 2005-08-15 13:09, Brian Turntime wrote:
had he not been revealed as a phony, there would be many more copying his chicanery.


There are, and he's back at it! http://www.peterpopoff.org

Quote:
Anyone else read it? I do think he goes overboard in calling hypnotherapy an occultic practice... skeptical on that one.


I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember, and I've never had any aversion towards hypnosis. I've even used it, myself.
I approached a woman who I'd known for years, and was good friends with, about hypnotising her for pain relief and she'd have no part of it. I was stunned to find out how many people (other types of Christians) are against it. I asked her why she felt that way, but she never did give me a straight answer.
Michael J.
�Believe then, if you please, that I can do strange things.� --from Shakespeare�s �As You Like It�
Brian Turntime
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Yup, I can't believe Popoff was ever able to find another audience, or Robert Tilton for that matter. Popoff's Tv "ministry" is so egregious... the guy's wife was recorded, and it was played on national TV, referring to a black audience member as a ni**er. One would think that would sink them. Nope.

After I returned from Africa with Mercy Ships, I saw Robert Tilton on Tv. I couldn't belief the feces he was shoveling. I looked at the clock and counted the seconds it took from him talking about how God wants to provide success for us, to him asking people to send him money in order for that to happen.

Andre Kole's book mentions him and other charlatans. It's valuable for us to clean our own house and not need investigative TV or debunkers like JREF do it for us.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
revlovejoy
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Careful, I called Benny Hinn a con man here and I was quickly deleted/censored.

Apparantly "negative" commentary on thieves is not allowed on the forum, even when it's true.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2005-08-15 13:09, Brian Turntime wrote:
Anyone else read it? I do think he goes overboard in calling hypnotherapy an occultic practice... skeptical on that one.


Brian:

I've been searching for the page where Andre calls "hypnotherapy an occultic practice." Being that the book is almost 300 pages long, I am having a problem finding the statement. Can you pinpoint it for me?

Thanks,

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Brian Turntime
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I consider the following to fall under the category of 'do-it-yourself' hypnotherapy:

p. 260 (Some) "...preach a message of success, using the occultic practices of visualization and possibility thinking in order for Christians to feel personally successful."

I am skeptical on this one.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
Carrie Sue
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Brian,

That's nowhere near the same thing as hypnotherapy. I have that book, too, and you're taking the quote completely out of context.

He's ripping on the "health and wealth" preachers like Robert Shuller, Tilton and the others (who certainly deserve ripping). While you may quibble with his use of the word "occultic," he's not dissing hypnotism here.

My problem with hypnotism is that there is a spiritual component to it that I don't think we're equipped to handle. Basically, a person who is hypnotized allows their mind to be taken over by someone else. I'm not confident that a person in such a state can be immune to demonic influence (or even possession, if they're not converted), so I choose not to promote it.

"Mind Games" is a great book, though.

CSR
www.proximityillusions.com

ASLAN IS ON THE MOVE!
christianmagicguy
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Carrie Sue,

No one can actually be "hypnotized" to the point that their mind can be "taken over" by someone else. There is nothing spiritual about it...it's purely phsycological.

Aric
Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2005-09-02 15:45, Carrie Sue wrote:
Brian,

That's nowhere near the same thing as hypnotherapy. I have that book, too, and you're taking the quote completely out of context.

He's ripping on the "health and wealth" preachers like Robert Shuller, Tilton and the others (who certainly deserve ripping). While you may quibble with his use of the word "occultic," he's not dissing hypnotism here.

My problem with hypnotism is that there is a spiritual component to it that I don't think we're equipped to handle. Basically, a person who is hypnotized allows their mind to be taken over by someone else. I'm not confident that a person in such a state can be immune to demonic influence (or even possession, if they're not converted), so I choose not to promote it.

"Mind Games" is a great book, though.

CSR


Please forgive me, but AAARRGGHH!! Smile

That is one of the biggest misconceptions about hypnosis around. Hypnosis is NOT mind control. It is, in point of fact, a cooperative state, and cannot exist without the conscious cooperation of both parties. Even though in the post hypnotic state there may be amnesia, that amnesia is the result of the intense concentration used while working on the issues or suggestions that the hypnotherapist and the client are working on. Much like tuning out the room when reading a really good book.

It has been demonstrated over and over again that hypnois can be terminated at any time, regardless of "depth" by the client, even in a stage hypnosis show and that any suggestion can be essentially disregarded, especially those suggestions that conflict with one's hard-held beliefs.

Just to clarify the situation from a clinical standpoint.

Lee Darrow, Certified Hypnotherapist
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Brian Turntime
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Lee--

I've always wondered... is there really a lot of entertainment value in hypnosis? Since you know its value for clinical work, do you think the stage trivializes the perception of hypnosis somewhat?

Here's why I ask: I worry when I see some hypnotist turning a person into a laughingstock for a stage effect. It's true that the person submitted willingly, but now the audience is going to be more reluctant to submit to hypnosis if they ever need it. I guess it's a matter of trust, but distrust of the process might trump trust of the person.

And I've watched a "street hypnotist" on TV Guide channel... the audience seemed completely underwhelmed. No moments of astonishment by the onlookers, more curiosity and rejection. And the participants don't enjoy the experience until after it's over, it seems... (in that case).
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
lowphat
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Quote:
On 2005-09-02 15:45, Carrie Sue wrote:
Basically, a person who is hypnotized allows their mind to be taken over by someone else. I'm not confident that a person in such a state can be immune to demonic influence (or even possession, if they're not converted), so I choose not to promote it.

CSR


What scriptural basis are you using to show that hypnosis leaves one open to demonic influence? You're in a far more relaxed and "vulnerable" state when you are sleeping. Perhaps we should all start eating no-dose like tic-tacs.
Lee Darrow
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Brian,

Excellent questions. Firstly, let me say that I do not tend to trivialize hypnosis in my shows, nor do I tend to demean my volunteers, yet I still seem to deliver a show that has a goodly amount of "gosh-wow" moments and amazement for the audience AND for the volunteers. Stage hypnotists, in many cases, have been the thing that has kept hypnosis alive in the minds of the public and, as such, alive as a therapeutic modality. I try to make my shows entertaining without being embarrassing, fun without making fun of the volunteers.

In fact, my goal is to have each and every member of that audience leave the show wishing that they HAD been able to participate in the show because it looked like it was so much fun to do!

Maybe it's my approach to the material...

I grew up the Charlie Brown of my neighborhood and, as such, never liked being made fun of as a kid. So, when I started doing hypnosis shows, the first thing I noticed about hypnosis shows was that many of them seemed to have a slight undertone of sadism in them. Over the years, I have worked very hard to eliminate that from my shows, yet to keep the humor in. My shows have been likened to Improvisational Comedy Under Hypnosis as opposed to Embarrassment On Wheels, which seems to be the style, especially in the UK these days.

I even close the show with a self help suggestion and the following:

"In a moment, you will waken from your hypnotic state, recalling everything that you have experienced this evening. When you do, you will not be embarrassed in any way, but will be amazed and thrilled at the new power and abilities you have discovered within yourselves, knowing that you can call on these inner resources for your own positive use when it is appropriate for you to do so in a safe and intelligent manner as each and every one of you has shown that you are people of great intelligence and powerfully imaginative!" I then finish with the wakening procedure.

By the time I've finished that suggestion, the REST of the audience feels like they really missed out of participating in something special, believe me, and it gets the idea across that this is not just all fun and games.

Thank you for that excellent question. I hope my response helped clarify my position.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Brian Turntime
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Great-- thanks so much for taking the time to reply. This point: "Stage hypnotists, in many cases, have been the thing that has kept hypnosis alive in the minds of the public and, as such, alive as a therapeutic modality," is very interesting, considering hypnosis' pedigree. But I will admit that it was seeing a hypnotist on a talk show get a man to eat an onion like an apple (mighta been a vidalia, I dunno) that convinced me hypnosis was an amazing thing.

My wife wanted to use hypnosis for pain management during labor. She delivered the baby in under four hours from the start of contractions....

I do know that I wouldn't want to be hypnotized by anyone who had only read a book or two on it, so I respect you admonishments to get professional certification.
------

Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright
Ed Hutchison
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I think it worth noting that hypnosis has been accepted by the American Medical Association (AMA) for nearly 50 years. The AMA does not deal in voodoo, evil practices, or mind control.

As a psychotherapist, former psychology professor, the author of a text on hypnosis, and as someone who has conducted many thousands of hypnotic inductions, I can assure the reader that hypnosis is a safe, pleasant, and effective therapy for a wide range of behavioral problems. As Lee Darrow has written above, hypnosis does not involve "mind control."

Incidentally, I have seen Andre Kole's show and found it to be not only entertaining but inspiring. In fact, I purchased his book, "Mind Games," while at the show. I think the book contains much wonderful material, but I simply disagree with his lumping of hypnosis with occult silliness.

Ed Hutchison

My FAQ on hypnosis is at http://hypnosisassociates.homestead.com/faq.html
Edward Hutchison

Madison, MS

Home Page: http://www.ERHutchison.com
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