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Brian Turntime Special user 671 Posts |
Quote: For me it wasn't. I wanted a way to connect with others and I ended up just enjoying the pure light fun of it and the reactions. Now I want to phase into using it to supporting my eating habit. It's definitely not a power trip...
The Dark side will alwas have a certain appeal to us mortal humans, especially those of us drawn to the realms of magic. After all it's more about power than anything else and isn't that why many of us got involved in magic in the first place? PS: the link above in my last post redirects to the wrong place: go here. Sorry.
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Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright |
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
Someone always mentions Hitler (but fair enough, this time also Stalin was mentioned. He was worse than Hitler). Well, check were I am from, World War II, a tad on a Hitler's side.
But I understand the concern, especially on this board, but I think it doesn't really matter. I don't like some of the things my church is or has been spreading around so presenting a little bit of sinister character etc. is my revenge. A lot better than leaving the church. Just a little rebelesque behaviour. Just a tad political incorrectness. As I said, nothing more than fun and games. At the end of the day, it does not matter. In fact, if I would state that angels, the messangers of god, are helping me to do magic, I would have a lot bigger dilemma. I am not too sure how that would play out in the end. I think (I haven't spend any time on this before) that it would be against my beliefs. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
[quote]On 2005-08-19 16:13, Brian Turntime wrote:
Quote:
Well both actually. The geek factor in a science fiction convention is a given, however they do tend to migrate towards the dark side. The numbers of attendees who wear black and mill about the sword vendors in the dealers room is staggering. These folk are definitely drawn to the power they perceive in the "bad guys" they relate to in the media. This is Batmans big appeal over the goody two shoe Superman, ultimate power and discretion to none. These guys counterparts at a magic convention are the young bucks who gather in the darkened corners of the hallways or coffee shop and continually try to one up each other with their finger flinging. Again it's all about the power for these folk, whose the top of their game and whose not. These are the guys who are going to buy "Devil" props (why else would Black Tigers be so popular) and laugh at the sissified Angel stuff.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Brian Turntime Special user 671 Posts |
"sissified"? "wimpy"?
Archangel Michael, the "prince" of Israel, is described as kicking the devil's tail. Others wield flaming swords. Devils are sniveling, wormy little "imps." 'Nuff said. "Sissified," as if. But I agree about the alienated youngsters, borrowing gravitas from the graveside. BTW, ever heard of the effect "Archangel"?
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Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright |
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Brian Turntime Special user 671 Posts |
Pekka-- there are many fictional stories that involve angelic and empyrean intervention... Milton, Peretti, Capra... I don't think a tongue in cheek mention of angels in a magic patter would be sacrilegious if done tastefully.
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Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright |
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
Maybe, Brian, the archangel image should be enhanced. Should be made more prominent.
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Daniel Faith Inner circle Neenah, Wisconsin 1526 Posts |
It is just a name.
Daniel Faith
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Brian:
I think Payne has made a significant point, in that humans are rebellious and by nature drawn towards autonomy and the acquisition of power (apparently characteristic of both the post- and pre-Fall conditions). This propensity, while not explicit in much modern Magic, is pretty well represented in fable/mythology: Pandora, Prometheus, Aesop, The Tales of the Arabian Nights, Golem, and so on. Much of our fiction even today is based on the premise of gaining power (of whatever nature and to whatever end): Spider Man, Bruce Almighty, Lord Of The Rings... As far as angels go, they're not indicative of weakness, but they're clearly subservient creatures; devils are independent, self-serving and self-centered. It doesn't seem any wonder that humans would gravitate towards those with whom we have so much in common. Nevertheless, as far as Magic dealers go, my hunch is that the imagery is much more benign, and based more on marketing than propagandizing for Old Hobb. Consider: Are there current incarnations of classical props with new names that are radically different from their predecessors' names? If someone came up with an innovative Zombie, would they call it, I don't know, Zeppelin? Astrophere? Oh, wait, they did that...Anyway, I wonder if "devil's hank" doesn't have more to do with continuity and existing market awareness than with dark forces. Leland |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4247 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-19 21:57, Leland Stone wrote: Bingo.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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Mark Tripp Regular user 148 Posts |
Also, keep in mind that from time to time, folks from other boards, who do not share our faith, love to come in here to stir the pot.
The simple explaination as far as magic and devils go is that it was a big part of the 30's. Many films and shorts were made about the devil and hell, and one has only to read tarbell where you can find tricks where, for one example, you send a letter to the Devil. As has been noted, most posters of magi of the time allude to this with little imps and devils all about them. I imagine this was to show how "powerful" they were. Today we have people like Chris Angel using different images to create that "weird power" concept. IMHO, as Gospel Magicians, we need to understand the history of our craft, but do not need to embrace the parts that conflict with our faith. All the more important to understand when comments you see here do reflect todays morals. After all, most video games let you be the bad guy, and some insist upon it. To say it is more "fun" that way is to reject the scriptures, as we are to avoid all appearance of evil. Mark Tripp |
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts |
Descriptions of some of the angels, and pictures of them could be pretty frightening (sic??) to some people.
My latest puppet is a shoulder dragon. It is a cross between friendly and not so friendly in appearance. My first thoughts are to use it in a routine about denial. I brought it to my program at the Catholic High School last week and played around with it during the time prior to parents entering the auditorium. As the tail wagged, the school counselor commented on the puppet. I replied, "what puppet." Although I was going to use it in my pre-show. I decided not to. The idea is to use the "what puppet, what are you talking about..." to lead into a discussion on self denial of motives, behavior, changes, lack of action, sin...... Any thoughts on the above related topic? The program for the parents of returning High School Students at St. Thomas Aquinas, was well recieved. I am looking forward to sharing at the area wide Faith Based Conference next month. Your input is appreciated by, Harris Deutsch Laughologist and Nearly Normal Speaker
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Leland Stone Inner circle 1204 Posts |
Hiya, Harris:
That's really funny...and whatever the instructional value of your new bit, I can just imagine comedy applications beyond your current intent. [Magician speaking] "I often wish I had some sort of helper, to look over my shoulder and teach me the right way to do Magic...that way, when I do Magic like this, it would look REALLY good...Now keep your eyes on the handkerchief..." ['Invisible' dragon speaking] "Yeah, watch the hanky...it's gonna go RIGHT UP HIS SLEEVE! Why are you applauding? It just went UP HIS SLEEVE...STOP THAT...it's NOT real Magic!!!" Thanks for the chuckle, Leland |
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Mark Tripp Regular user 148 Posts |
Or, if you can do REALLY good vent...
The DRAGON says "What puppet, I've been trying to get this guy away from me for hours!" I cleaned it up, a medical reference came to mind too..... |
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Brian Turntime Special user 671 Posts |
Quote: This goes as far back into literature as can be... Prometheus steals fire from the deities...
Leland wrote: Much of our fiction even today is based on the premise of gaining power (of whatever nature and to whatever end): Spider Man, Bruce Almighty, Lord Of The Rings... Allow me to point out that Payne was saying people root for the bad guy because he's more interesting: Vader et al. But who dresses up as an orc for Halloween? The devil is a parallel to the orcs, trolls, Nazgul and the like. The angels are represented by Gandalf, Galadriel, et al. Quote: Point taken. But even so the perception of independence is a false one-- the scriptures make it clear that the demons are subject to rule and hierarchy. CS Lewis' conception seems fitting a la Screwtape.
As far as angels go, they're not indicative of weakness, but they're clearly subservient creatures; devils are independent, self-serving and self-centered. It doesn't seem any wonder that humans would gravitate towards those with whom we have so much in common. Quote: I think that is an excellent observation.Nevertheless, as far as Magic dealers go, my hunch is that the imagery is much more benign, and based more on marketing than propagandizing for Old Hobb. Consider: Are there current incarnations of classical props with new names that are radically different from their predecessors' names? ... Anyway, I wonder if "devil's hank" doesn't have more to do with continuity and existing market awareness than with dark forces.
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Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
At the time many of the devil images in magic catalogs and posters came about, all "unnatural phenomena" was attributed to demonic forces. This is particularly true during the time of the inquisition (before the catalogs and posters) and after the original settlers hit the shores of the US. Things that did not "seem right" were attributed to the work of the devil, crops that failed, eclipses, plagues, etc. We even have it on recrod that the CHURCH decided that people performing conjuring tricks would be punished for having associated themselves with the devil - even when their props did not have Mephistopheles stenciled thereon.
Well, what is the magician's job? To violate the laws of nature. A magician making things happen the way things are supposed to happen, isn't very amazing. So, it is only reasonable, that tools used to created seemingly supernatural acts would be associated with the devil because that is the association the culture of the day - ruled by the church - dictated. So, and this is an honest observation not to sound confrontational, the gospel magicians who lament that condition today are essentially laying in the beds their churchs made for them years ago. That's my theory, Brad |
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Brian Turntime Special user 671 Posts |
Why not call it a "PK Hank" ?
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Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Steven Wright |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Because 100 years ago when it was named it was called a Devil's Hank? (BTW, the Devil's hank and the Glorpy/Hyrum hank are two different things.)Ms. Welch has given her product the historically accurate name. What would it serve her interests to name it something that would raise questions rather than answer them.
Like I said, you guys should have raised this argument about 200 years ago when you could have done something about it. |
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Mark Tripp Regular user 148 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-08-21 16:30, truthteller wrote: Phui! In the first place, our faith is not something we take lightly, nor is it myth to us. We worship a living God who we serve gladly and wish to please. As such, we try very hard to do the things that please him. As such, I will buy an "Angel Hank" long before I would buy one with a Devil on it. I vote with my wallet, as do most people of faith. WHY things are named as they are is interesting; but there is no rule that says they have to stay that way. I am very good at a russian system of jacket wrestling correctly spelled "Sambo", it means self-defense without weapons in Russian. However, my club on our jackets and flyers spell it "sombo". This is NOT correct, but the other spelling is offensive to a great many people, and I do not wish to offend anyone. Either do the makers of Gospel Magic. |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
There still exists in the world people who believe that anything not natural is the work of the devil. There are people who still exist in this world (and I have met them) that believe stage conjuring specifically is the work of the devil.
So, to take your argument of not wishing to offend ANYONE, we must now cease to perform stage magic. This, of course, is ludicrous. The fact is most normal human beings of a reasonable level of intelligence can distinguish between an all powerful being of darkness, and a red faced, goateed charactiture. They have a maturity which allows them to realize that one is a cartoon and as such are willing to move on with their lives and perform the Banana/Bandana trick without fear of going to Hell. While I respect that you choose to believe in a God and Devil. I do not. While I will not try to convince you in my beliefs, I see no reason why YOUR beliefs should dictate what I do with my magic, the products I choose to buy, or the imagery on the products I might choose to sell. More importantly, I see no reason why the traditional practices in the art I love must be changed because it might upset some people for completely irrational reasons. (A group of people, I might add, who historically have done everything in their power to put an end to our artform). The fact is, Devil's Hanks will be sold for the next 100 years because the majority of magicians WILL vote with their wallet and buy products for which they know what they are paying. (The hank is question doe NOT have a devil on it. It merely is NAMED Devil's hank. As it has been done ofr over 100 years. A layperson would have no idea what it was called.) The Church was responsible for naming the item, albeit indirectly. Perhaps they should have had a little more forethought in their choice of who to persecute. Brad |
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Chessmann Inner circle 4247 Posts |
[quote]....I see no reason why YOUR beliefs should dictate what I do with my magic, the products I choose to buy, or the imagery on the products I might choose to sell. More importantly, I see no reason why the traditional practices in the art I love must be changed because it might upset some people for completely irrational reasons. (A group of people, I might add, who historically have done everything in their power to put an end to our artform).
[quote] Where on earth did that come from? No one here is trying do dictate anything to you. Nor is anyone trying to change anything you do. A question was posed - nothing more. And I would suggest - if you wish to compare "groups of people" - we compare notes of who, over time, has done what to whom. Your "group" is certainly not the offended minority. You are also arguing a position no one is defending. [quote]The Church was responsible for naming the item, albeit indirectly. [quote] Wow.... [quote]Perhaps they should have had a little more forethought in their choice of who to persecute. [quote] A new low in agrumentation. You do not care about the issue at hand, but it is very clear what you do care about. Check your history - all of it, church and secular - it deserves better than you have given it. And let's get back to the issue.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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