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Alniner Loyal user Burlington, ON, Canada 254 Posts |
Holy crap. That was the fastest I've ever seen it done. Can I get this as an instant download somewhere?
Skål
-- Alan |
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love2laugh Veteran user 374 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-10 20:56, Rindfleisch wrote: THANK YOU JOE!!!! It was nice seeing you answer the challenge! I would love to have seen Ken Krenzel perform 120 per minute. I am still having a hard time imagining 120 per minute. Great video! Thank you, L2L |
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
This is a perfect example of working for speed reduces the deceptabiity of a move. Note how on the video Joe pulls with his right ring finger to assist the transpositions of the packets. See how his little finger wiggles along with the pulling action. For maximum deceptability, the top or right hand, should be motionless. Try interweaving a ball point pen through your right hand fingers and do the move again. See the difference? In time, you will have the speed back and the added benefit of no right hand movement.
Kirk |
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love2laugh Veteran user 374 Posts |
Good points Kirk! This has been a very good learning experience.
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Rindfleisch Special user New Jersey 502 Posts |
Again my prefered use is in an ambitious card routine so the hands are in constant motion. So the fact that the right hand moves in the action of rocking at the wrist, it's not a big deal. again this is only my opinion.
Joe Rindfleisch
check me out on facebook #MAGICTOTD
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
Joe,
I am sure by the work that you have put in this, that you manage your audiences attention so it is a minor point. If you put in the additional work with the pen, it will just be a little bit better. Kirk |
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Alex Linian Inner circle Peru 1277 Posts |
I have friends friends who do it slowly and get away with it. In fact one of my friends lost movement in his left hand yet is stil able to control cards with a pass.
A pass doesn't have to be fast to be invisible. I wish I'd known this a couple years ago, when I was able to do 122 passes per min. with a new break every time.
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KirkG Inner circle 1391 Posts |
While absolute speed is not always necessary, more speed opens up more options. I also think many "get away with it" due to the kindness of strangers.
Kirk |
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
Great older thread, is anyone still working on speed like this?
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ssibal Veteran user 352 Posts |
Speed won’t really help with a pass as anyone looking at the deck will know you did something. You can mitigate this with proper angles but you absolutely need misdirection if you are performing this move.
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MikeLarkin New user 86 Posts |
Yeah. If you also can do 80 double lifts per minute then you will really be cooking with gas.
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
Ssibal, I'd think the point of doing it at speed other than a color change would be to be able to do it in an instant when someone isn't burning you, but you raise a good point of not doing passes when someone is watching without paying attention to angles.
Appreciate the response and I guess to reframe it, has anyone been working on increasing the speed of their passes as part of practice? Any tips? |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
RoyalRD, have you read this entire thread? Legitimate question asked without motivation except to know if you have or not.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
Hey Tortuga, yes, I read it before weighing in on it (it had been dead for about 7 years) and I thought it was interesting. I definitely wouldn't mind speeding up my pass and was hoping that folks who had been working on it might talk about their process. Don't need to tip anything, though it's always welcome, lol.
It's also totally fine if people don't care about pass speed, but if some people do and want to talk about it, I'm interested. Have you done speed work on your classic pass Tortuga? |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Speed can be reckless, so technique must come first. Only when the pass dynamics are completely understood should one attempt to gain speed. As the fingers get stronger through repetition the speed will come along with it. If your fingers aren't very strong to begin with I recommend strengthening exercises. For example, hand grips are good and there are even ones that work your fingers individually. Way back in the day I heard about "pass weights", where you take cards and laminate them to sheets of lead. You make up two half decks and then you practice the pass with them, the extra weight helping to strengthen your hands. Another thing people do to add difficulty is practice the pass with more cards, say 60 to 65 instead of 52. Practice with the "fatter" deck and then go back to 52 and see if it is easier. Personally I never bothered with that approach, but it if helps, great.
My problem with the discussion of speed is this. Speed cannot cover up bad technique. It will simply end up bad, just faster. There are strong opinions on the pass and if you read this thread and others you can't help but be confused. Those who use it have pretty much ignored all of the well-intentioned advice and just do it. I won't argue all of the fine points but let's just say I find issues with many of the opinions you typically read. Password: Fastpass1 https://vimeo.com/512288138
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
Thanks so much for this thorough answer Tortuga! I agree that technique is important and that video is great, thanks for sharing it.
I've heard about pass weights but never used them, though if anyone has and has thoughts beyond those already included in the thread, I'd be interested. Similarly, I've heard of people using fatter decks or even two full decks in cases. I agree with you about bad technique being the first thing to work on and as I'm practicing, I'm trying to get plenty of mirror time. While I'm doing it, I'm also trying to get my muscles built up as you said and all of this is interesting and helpful; extra little challenges/thoughts/ideas to try when practicing, especially on isolating different parts of movements to finesse and get them better. I really appreciate you input and if you have further thoughts on technique/fine points/etc. it's super welcome to me. Not to derail the thread and the idea of the 120/minute LePaul/Dr. Elliott standard, but I'm sure people wouldn't mind more chatter on the classic pass. |
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts |
Two decks would be a bad idea unless your hands are massive. You don't want to stray from proper technique, including the proper grip and I'm thinking you'd have to in order to accommodate that thick a stack.
Speed comes with time and experience and I also think there's a sort of "reflexive" speed that develops. You have to be careful though because when something becomes too "mindless" problems can arise. This happens in sports sometimes when an athlete becomes so conditioned to doing something that they begin to lose focus on it and all heck breaks loose. Work towards it becoming second nature but keep your mind in the game.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
I think the idea of two decks was to get the movement small with one deck, then practice with two, try to get it close to the original with one, and then go back to one to get smaller. Challenging!
Something I really liked about your work was the softness of that riffle. It looked small and elegant and if I wasn't looking for it I doubt I'd see anything. Great comparison to sports movement conditioning and staying mentally present |
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RoyalRd New user 42 Posts |
FWIW, I picked up a steel training deck and have been playing with it quite a bit. A few notes:
1) I can feel it work my muscles slightly 2) When I do passes with a regular deck after, the deck definitely feels lighter 3) With a standard deck, I consistently hit 80 in a minute. Most is 88 and I'm pushing to get to the 90s. 4) With a steel deck, I consistently hit 60, usually slowing as the plates slide on each other Other parts of this experiment are finger shoots and extensor curls. If anything happens of note, I'll update, and as always, welcome to thoughts and tips on increasing speed. |
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