Many, many years ago, if I may share an anecdote, I worked as an assistant baker at a small bakery in Culver Indiana. The head baker there, a certain Mr. Ellis Licht, had only a year or so until his retirement, having worked there most of his career.

Anyway, I have vivid memories of this big man (years of eating your own pies, cakes, doughnuts, sweet-rolls, breads, cookies, etc., etc.)and his eccentric ways.

The most vivid memory I have of him is this. When there was a item that needed to be baked, he did not rely on memory, but had written all his recipes in a little book, that we could call his "recipe Book" (Ahem.....clears throat)

I never saw this book. But I knew it was there.

You see he kept it in a drawer, and no one was allowed in that drawer except Mr. Licht. When he needed to recall the ingredients called for, he would open the drawer a crack, peek down in it, flip through the book, read aloud the called for ingredient that he wished for us to fetch, and then he would close the drawer. We only knew bits and pieces because of this technique. And if we dared peek in the drawer, his wrath would have surely consumed us! He was jealous and secretive of those hard earned recipes and remained that way until he retired.

Years later I worked for Mcormicks food service making condiments for McDonalds. We made ketchup, relish, tarter sauce, Big Mac sauce, and all the others. We made it but we didn't know the formulas....we were only allowed to know a small portion of each recipe. Everyone knew their part, and in the end it ended up making a unified whole. I remember that well.

Today at the plant where I am currently, an event occurred that was unique to me as far as I have been there. We have one room, you see, where they make parts called the "C.S." line. I don't know what those initials stand for....but let me say that that line, of all the lines in the plant, is our bread and butter line.

The machines used in the room are proprietary. They were especially designed for us by a very ingenious man in Germany. I believe they may indeed be the only ones in the world.

Anyway, we had some visitors today on a little tour, and for the first time in my life, I saw them actually shut and seal the doors to that C.S. room until the visitors were gone. They apparently did not want them to even have a g;impse in that room of those machines! I would have to say that they were jealously guarding those secrets.

Are you seeing what is coming here?
All this exposure that we hear about so often, and magic is an open book to whomever


What I would like to know is this: Do you think we, as a whole, are too lenient in our attitudes about the secrets which are the "bread and butter" of many of us, and do you think that perhaps a little more jealousy in guarding these secrets may be in order? If so, how on God's green earth do we ever enforce this? Is that even possible, or are we too far gone? (because of this being the information age, and all that.)

What do you think?

I worked delivering pizza many years ago. (Yeah, I know the joke...) Tony's Italia. Steve, the guy that owned Tony's, had the best Italian sausage I have EVER tasted, and my grandmother was Italian. I asked him for the recipe and he told me, "No. Don't ask again." End of discussion. He never told me the recipe, even after his wife absconded with the $$$ and he had to close shop. I sure miss that sausage...

Sometimes, I think this community is WAY too lenient with the work. The question isn't whether or not one "should" protect it. Just like anything of value, if it isn't protected, it WILL get stolen. The question is HOW does one protect it. There are some great thoughts on this subject, with slightly different verbage, here:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......7&25

I think it is a matter of returning to secrecy, working with those that agree to the same rules of conduct (rules revolving more around responsibilities than rights...), and waging constant conflict against the storm of dumbbells that are ONLY interested in selling secrets for profit. Highly optimistic am I?

Perhaps not, my friend.

Magic secrets should be dispensed like military secrets -- on a "need to know" basis.

Does anyone really need to know? How do you decide who needs to know?

I am omniscient. Also, I know everything. Just ask me.

:lol:

The real secret isn't in the gaff, gimmick, or sleight of hand.

I watched Dai Vernon explain the Cone and Ball (Harlequin act)/Ball and Silk routine for an hour, and then I watched a video of him performing those very same routines (thanks to Glenn Bishop's video theater) and I was totally fooled.

If you show any competent engineer, regardless of his experience, the blueprints to a certain electrical device, he will probably be able to duplicate the device successfully. If, however, you reveal the same secret to two different magicians, one of whom is a lot more experienced than the other, you will no doubt end up with two totally different results. I think it will even be perceived by the audience as completely different.

One of them fumbles, mumbles, shifts his weight, doesn't make eye contact, isn't clear about what's happening, and awaits the reaction that never came, while the other is coherent, pleasant to watch, confident in his movement, happy to interact with the audience, and happier even when he gets cheered on at the end.

You can't steal a gift, and you can't buy a secret. A REAL secret. It's not about the technicality of it, it's what you do with it.

Andrei

That's one of the biggest problems; who gets access and who is denied access? If an effect is put on the market or in a book or DVD, *anyone* can buy it (generally speaking; occasionally some products have some kind of restriction, but not too often). There are over 20,000 members here, and I would bet that every one of us wants to have access to secrets.

1) Who gets access?
2) How do you restrict access?

The question as I see it is almost always:
What do you wish to bring to your audience?

As secrets go, the mechanical workings of magic tricks tend to be petty and awkward. So what if there is a fan of fine wires and a nice harness? So what that there are a couple of coins stuck together? As abstract knowledge these are nothing compared to understanding Keynesian economics or several other truly remarkable findings of the last century including Einstein's relativity and quantum mechanics. The need to know pretty much comes from a need to do. The need to do comes from an artistic vision. Without the vision, it's just mimicry, something best left to Disney's animating exhibits IMHO.

No you will not be a better person for knowing the exact dimensions of Harbin's Zig-Zag woman or be a more clever person for having written down the choreography of Armando Lucerno's coin routines. Unfortunately for magic, such beliefs are fostered by confronting newbies with routines then browbeating them for not having read all the old books and lecture notes in print.

IMHO the only secrets a magician truly needs to know is that magic exists for the audience and that it becomes more important to stay in touch with their perspective as you learn more about how to make tricks work.

Okay back to sales pitches about card tricks that use no wires or wax or flaps or switches or... yeah puzzles.

Yes I feel that magicians should guard magic secrets from the Lay audience. Secrets should be passed on to the students of magic of the younger generation. In book form, DVD, internet and video or whatever future media that may come along in the coming years.

Magic and the secrets of magic should be respected by both magicians and the students of magic.

If magicians do not respect the art of magic - who will?

Jonathan Townsend writes:

"IMHO the only secrets a magician truly needs to know is that magic exists for the audience and that it becomes more important to stay in touch with their perspective as you learn more about how to make tricks work."

I'm listening and I think I get it. I see it this way...

A teacher truly needs to know that knowledge exists for the student and that it becomes more important to stay in touch with the students' perspective as you learn more about how to help them learn.

Pretty darn close, if you ask me...similar...similar...similar...

Another quote...

"The need to know pretty much comes from (the)a need to DO."

Jackpot. And another topic in itself.

Please permit this digression...

Re the question of who gets access and who restricts access...simply stated...it's your work, you decide...and choose with care. Remember that... responsibilities...are often...more important...than rights...

Great post Patrick Differ...

Glenn: how do you keep books and DVDs out of the hands of lay people? Currently virtually all magic books and videos are available to everyone. Do you think magic stores or book/DVD publishers should restrict access?

Quote:
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Re the question of who gets access and who restricts access...simply stated...it's your work, you decide...and choose with care. Remember that... responsibilities...are often...more important...than rights...

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Except if you publish your secrets or put an effect on the market it's out of your hands. Do you think magicians shouldn't put their stuff on the market?

From my understanding jimtron when a person produces a product and puts it up for sale. They have to sell it to whoever orders it. For example if a magic shop puts out a product they have to sell it to who ever wants to buy it.

When I was selling my DVDs and someone ordered them and sent me money I have to sell it to them and complete the transaction. Now that they are not on the open market it is different. I have had offers to sell them in magic shops but I do not want to lose control of my own work.

Selling magic is about making money today. Not about restricting or keeping secrets. If you are talking about sales and keeping the secrets sales is going to win because there is more people in the world today that want to make money than keep secrets.

So to answer you question. I do not think it is possible to restrict access. For every lock there comes a way around the lock if they want it badly enough!

Glenn:

But what about "guarding magic secrets from the lay audience"?



But a lay person doesn't have to "pick a lock" to get marketed books or effects, all they have to do is make a legal purchase. I'm not talking about illicit trading in secrets, but legally marketed stuff.

I won't say how this is done, but I will say how it can be done. When I sold the Cézanne Code, the purchaser had to send me a non-disclosure agreement. So far, only one of the people who has purchased it seems to have violated that.

In return, I do not let anyone know who purchased it unless I have their permission. Why? They keep my secrets -- I keep theirs.

The version of the Cézanne Code that I sold was much more complex than the original version. I expanded it with the full approval of the originator. And he got his share of the money. When someone e-mailed me or phoned me wanting to know about the code, I would ask a series of questions calculated to determine whether they could actually use it. If they did not have a permanent partner, there was no sense in getting it. Also, if they had never done any mentalism before, I discouraged it. I recommended other sources first.

This is a very important point, Jonathan. Thank you.

Non-disclosure agreements sound like a great idea, Bill.

Jimtron says:

Except if you publish your secrets or put an effect on the market it's out of your hands. Do you think magicians shouldn't put their stuff on the market?

Sorry...which market? The open market?

Put your work on the open market and you might as well do business like everyone else does. Put your work on the open market and sell to whomever has the $$$ and that is your choice. So, what do you want?

Are there other types of markets? You bet. Limited markets abound. If you choose to limit your market, you can do so in a myriad of ways. You can choose to only lease performance rights, you can jack the price sky-high, you can release to whomever you deem capable, you can choose to only tell your students...

Some dealers have a client list. They will mail out invitations to purchase their material. It weeds out the people who buy magic to see how the breakaway wand works.

Those dealers are on the right track.