|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9 [Next] | ||||||||||
BlackShadow Special user London UK 666 Posts |
I'd regard having read 30 books on just one branch of magic alone as a pretty good background, actually. Yes there will be some with greater knowledge... but not many. You will be in the top few percent for sure, and its not the kind of background which could belittled in any rational sense.
Quote:
What I object to most strenuously is the wholesale doling out of secrets to anyone who can click a link on the internet, without regard to who created the routine and without actually teaching how to do it properly Surely that means that if there is proper acknowledgment of the creator, and instructions on presentation and method then Wikipedia entries (for example) are OK. Printed instruction on Wikipedia is no different to printed instruction one might purchase when buying an effect from a dealer. (All this provided the creator had previously otherwise made public his routine). |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That depends entirely upon the permissions. Balducci never released his levitation to the lay public. Of course, Wikipedia only provides the link, but that still isn't good.
OTOH, I have a big bone to pick with the AllMagicGuide because it is an open site and they have exposed all sorts of goodies there, and I'm not talking about public domain magic. The 1999 issue of Encarta had a direct link to their site.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
As the baker stood and looked up at the all the books in the vast and impressive library of the magician, he knew he himself had just one secret in his secret recipe book. But he knew no one else knew or could read his book and therefore it had more secrets than all the magic books in the world.
The magic books had been published and publishing is the activity of putting information in the public arena therefore they contained no secrets at all but only public knowledge he reasoned. At that point a magician said to the baker, "Do you have an interest in magic?" and the baker said, "No, I only do one trick, I bake, have a hot cake." The magician took a cake and as he eat it, his mouth watered. "Wow! what’s recipe?," the magician asked? "That’s a secret," said the baker. "What are you doing in my library anyway you annoying little baker, get out of here," said the magician, "These are my secrets."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
troller Loyal user 276 Posts |
If even one magic store exists to the public, then we are all doomed!
If even one DVD, book, or internet page showing magic and how it can be yours for a price, we are all doomed. If you learned the secret to a magic trick, then why can't I? What makes you so special? Why are you allowed to be called a magician? What about all those others that want to become a magician? Do they get to look into the book of knowledge? What made you so special that you were able to learn it? And you use to be called a laymen. Now you and only you call yourself a magician. If I see your act, possibly I might also call you a magician? But that still doesn't give you the right to stop someone like me from aspiring to become a magician. And what level of magician do I have to be to understand my craft? If I am starting out, should I only learn the cheap stuff? What if I am in it for 2, 5, 10 years, when is it an appropriate time for me to learn the inner secrets of magic? Face it, in todays world, you cannot deny someone seeking knowledge. And that someone might become the next magical magician that you might want to aspire to be. Who are you and why are you trying to cause a stink? Leave well alone because your publicity on the subject is what is causing others to notice that there are avenues available to those that seek the knowledge. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I'm going to assume that you are addressing me, even though I did not originally raise the issue.
I have never said that a serious magic student or hobbyist should not be able to access the secrets of magic. All I have said are the following: 1) The secrets should be guarded from the public. 2) There is no "right to know." 3) Not all secrets should be open to all magicians. 4) Secrets should be distributed on a "need to know" basis. I have never said that I was "special." But someone has to be the one to say, "I'm tired of seeing the things that I stood for, created, worked for, paid for and learned laid bare for all and sundry to see." And who are you to tell me that I don't have the right to say that? You have the right to post anything you want to, no matter how stupid and ill-informed I might think it is. Now go troll.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
Kenn Capman Regular user Southwestern Michigan 196 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-01 16:03, Bill Palmer wrote: Careful Bill, that sounds an awful lot like <GASP!> 'paying one's dues.' There seems to be an 'entitlement belief' where secrets are concerned. I agree that one should 'pay their dues' before moving into the 'next level' of secrets in magic.
"The thermometer of success is merely the jealousy of the malcontents."
- Salvador Dali - |
|||||||||
jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Ken: in your opinion, whom is entitled to magic secrets? Whom is not entitled? Isn't anyone on earth entitled to purchase any magic book, DVD, or effect that is for sale without restriction--from Denny & Lee, Hocus-Pocus, Ronjo, Tannen's, Magic Inc., etc.?
Is everyone entitled to buy the latest L&L DVD, or only a select few? Where/how do you draw the line? And what responsibility do the magicians and publishers of books and DVDs have in this (let's assume for the sake of argument that there revealing their own secrets). If effects should be guarded like secret recipes (as was discussed earlier in this thread), isn't it wrong to put secrets on the open market? There have been lots of disussion about Wikipedia and other Internet exposure, the Masked Magician, file sharing, etc.; but I'm curious about people's views of access to secrets via legit routes (stores). Because in my opinion when people complain about exposure I think they often overlook the vast number of books, DVDs, and effects that are easily accessible for purchase. I wonder if more "unwanted exposure" is disseminated that way as opposed to Masked Magician, Internet, etc. Thanks, Jim |
|||||||||
BSutter Special user Sitting on a pile of 582 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-01 16:03, Bill Palmer wrote: Touché Magic is a complex craft. By this I mean Magic is composed of many crafts. One does not need to learn to spin metal to be a Magician, if one wishes to make Magic props Spinning may be a necessary craft, Metal Spinning is not learned overnight. That is only a single possible facet of the Art. Performing Magic well requires knowledge of writing, public speaking, stage presence / audience control, personal grooming habits suitable for your venue, equipment maintenance, etc. Most of all, the requirements include a desire to learn and perfect the presentation. During the past 30 years Magic has been my hobby, sure I have done a few paid shows. The real satisfaction I derive is the feeling of accomplishment provided by learning and perfecting, It is a process and as such can not be circumvented. During my 30 year jorney down this path there have been many things I "wanted" to know, was the information immediately made available, usually not, however as time marched on and knowledge was gained many of these doors opened up. Enjoy the journey for it is most of the fun. You will get back what you put in. Bill |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
That's exactly right.
I don't view purchasing the latest DVD from your local magic shop as "exposure." What happens to the information afterwards very well may be. If the purchaser does a bad job with the trick, it may ruin the trick for that neighborhood for a while. I have done Ring Flight since the very early 1970's. I could see some problems with the "depot" version, so I made my own using much stronger materials. I don't sell these, I just make my own to replace the legal one I purchased years ago. (necessary disclaimer). So, I was doing a close-up show for a frequent customer's business. I got to one table, and a secretary remarked, "Oh, you did that ring thing with me the last time I was here. Now we all know how it worked. Mr. Dumbidiot, our president, went to the magic shop and got one. By the time he had done it for all of us, we all knew how it worked." Mine was different from the depot item, because I could actually let them look inside it when I revealed the ring. So I did it and fooled them, but someone with less knowledge and different resources would have been up the creek. Now this was long before DVD's were so easily available. However, I should not have been put into that position in the first place. I don't want to put down L&L or any of the other producers of DVD's, but think about this: if you learn all your magic off DVD's, and all you have are the latest ones from L&L, you are going to be doing the same thing everyone else does. You will be a monodimensional magician. One of the phenomena that the DVD revolution has brought us is the newbie who does one or two fairly complex tricks flawlessly, with exactly the same patter as the DVD, but that's all they do. There is no substance to their knowledge. It's like an artist that copies a Picasso. It may be a perfect copy, but it's all they can do. I am far less concerned with the DVD's and books than I am with the instant keystroke videos and lookups I can find on the internet. While I was in London at the Centenary, I was interviewed by a reporter who was doing a piece on magicians and exposure. I performed my Scotch and Soda routine for them on camera. I stated my case about exposure and the Magic Circle's position about it. They grilled me, but I held my ground. This afternoon, I got an e-mail from him describing the way he had worked it out, using various sleights, but he realized it was much more difficult than what I had done and that it didn't look as clean. Then he asked if I would share my version with him. My reply? "Have you joined a magic club yet." Why did I reply that way? Part of the Magic Circle charter states that I am supposed to give the secrets only to people who are members of a recognized magical organization. He knows that. So, if I had given him the routine, he would have been able to tell his viewing/listening audience that he had put one over on me. Ain't gonna happen to this guy. BTW, if any of you who have chided me for my stance against exposure think that you can make any headway whatsoever with any argument or rationalization you may concoct, you are wrong. You couldn't hold a candle to the grilling technique of a couple of reporters from the BBC.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
troller Loyal user 276 Posts |
By the way, for your information, the wording (my handle) troller stems from Toronto Roller. Toronto + Rock n Roll. I though it sounded pretty neat. That was before I found out what troll ment.
Do not confuse troller with a troll. I am not nor have I ever been a troll. Now back to our scheduled program..... Again, how is a laymen prevented from going to the same store as you to buy the same trick you did? And now that he / she has the trick, are they now considered amature magicians? What if they picked up a dozen more tricks? Are they now an amateur magician. What if they were paid to show off their newly bought magic, are hey now a professional magician. What if the club or venue asked them to show it off everynight for the next 2 weeks/ 2 months / 2 years? Are they now a magician? What if you bought all these tricks, practiced till the cows came home, and never ever got paid for showing your magic, are you still considered a magician or not? What is the purpose of a magician? Performing or spending and buying tricks? Is a magician that never gets paid, still a magician? |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
This is what is generally called "a circular argument" or "begging the question."
Basically, you are setting up a situation that is not really true to life. Laymen don't generally walk into magic shops and buy every DVD that they see. If they were to do so, then they would probably learn to perform some of the material. Face it, most of the presentations on DVD's are watered down, anyway. Very few of the guys put all of their "A" material on the DVD. If a fellow goes out and performs on a regular basis, then, of course, he is a magician. That's pretty much defined by what a magician is. And he would probably be an amateur magician. And if he got paid, he would be a semi-pro or a part time pro. If he performed without being paid, he would still be an amateur magician. Nobody says he wouldn't be, least of all me. I don't know whether it is necessary for me to point out to you that one of the finest minds in magic was a Canadian who probably did very few paid performances in his life, yet he is directly responsible for much of the "new" magic on the market. That was Stewart James. He doesn't appear on DVD's, but his magic does. And nobody ever even ventured to say he wasn't a magician. Read the whole thread before you add any more to this. Your statements show that you have either not read all of it, or you don't understand it. A lot of this goes to mindset and attitude. I want to ask you a question, just to see how much you really understand about magic. Please don't take offense at this. How much magic do you own? (directed strictly to troller) Posted: Sep 1, 2005 7:13pm --------------------------------------------------- Okay, since I'm probably not going to have much time to do this tonight, especially to wait around for an answer, I'll tip my mitt. The answer is "You don't own any magic." Neither do I. Nobody owns any magic. We own the tools to make magic occur, but the magic, itself, is an evanescent thing that exists only in the mind of the spectator. The secrets, the props, the books, the DVD's -- these are all tools which help us cause the magic to occur. When the secrets of the tools are revealed, then they won't work any more. So we have to create new ones or disguise the old ones so nobody will know what they are. Now, when I referred to levels of magician, I wasn't referring to amateur, semi-professional and professional. These are not levels. These are categories based entirely upon the remuneration that a magician receives. The amount of time a magician has been involved in magic has very little to do with his level in magic. What counts are what he knows and what he can do with it. A fellow who has been doing magic for two years who can do all the moves in Erdnase perfectly and present effective magic with them is a much higher level magician than the one who has been doing magic for 15 years, but all he can do is the Professor's Nightmare and a clumsy version of the vanishing hanky in a TT. A really well-rounded magician has a basic knowledge of cards, coins, manipulation, illusion, mentalism and the history of the art. There are not many magicians like that any more. The best are the performer-creator-entertainers. Johnny Thompson is a good example. He is a high level magician. He would be a high level magician whether he was a member of the Academy of Magical Arts and Sciences, IBM, SAM and an MIMC. And he is all of the above.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
magicalaurie Inner circle Ontario, Canada 2962 Posts |
Reading is very important. Reading and understanding. Before speaking.
|
|||||||||
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3222 Posts |
Magiclaurie, I agree that reading is important. My Dad was a librarian and my mother a teacher. How could I disagree! I also liked the topic you created where you asked if most people read a topic from beginning to end. I think that's important.
You have great posts in this topic Bill. In my earlier list, I was trying to define what would constitute “need to know.” I hadn’t considered that someone should be in a recognized magic organization, but I think that’s generally a good idea, although the S.A.M. and I.B.M. don’t go quite that far. Maybe they should. There are two obvious benefits.
tommy wrote: Quote:
At that point a magician said to the baker, "Do you have an interest in magic?" and the baker said, "No, I only do one trick, I bake, have a hot cake." The magician took a cake and as he eat it, his mouth watered. "Wow! what’s recipe?," the magician asked? "That’s a secret," said the baker. Here’s an alternate ending: And then the magician pulled a book off the shelf, and said, "This is by Al Baker. We magicians have our own Ways and Means! Now get out of here!" Regarding keeping a magic secret exclusive - I believe that if Mickey Silver had published his now famous coin vanish shortly after he demonstrated it to the magic community, he wouldn’t get nearly as much attention and praise as he does now. And for the record, I think he deserves all the attention and praise he gets, and more. That’s not the same issue as exposure, but it springs from the same cause. Magicians aren’t immune from appreciating magic more when they don’t know the secret. The only additional difference is that some magicians want to copy a performance they like, i.e. they view the secret as valuable in different way than just experiencing magic.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
|||||||||
troller Loyal user 276 Posts |
Reading and understanding is a 2 way street. I guess you did not understand my post. Therefore you could be indanger of living in your own world.
I guess my beef is that there is always somebody trying to take away your freedom and pleasure. I hope politics never enters the magic realm. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Actually, I understood your post completely. I simply chose to ignore the obviously frivolous parts of it. I'll answer it in detail now.
Quote:
On 2005-09-01 14:48, troller wrote: Don't be silly. Nobody has ever said that. Quote:
Maybe it's because you don't know where to look. Maybe it's because it's something I created and I don't particularly feel like sharing it. Maybe it's because it hasn't been published, but someone told me the secret in confidence. I know a lot of secrets like that. Quote:
Don't tempt me. Go to my main web site and look. I'm not going to brag. It is beneath me. Quote:
Because I perform magic. I make people believe in magic while I am performing. I create magic in their minds. The others can, too. But they can't learn it overnight. And they shouldn't be handed the secrets on a silver platter. They should earn them. When all the secrets are laid bare, that empties the tool chest. If you had read my earlier posts about mentoring, in other threads, you would know that I also believe in other types of teaching besides being paid cold cash. Quote:
Yes, when they have proved they are ready and worthy. And that they can keep a secret. Quote:
I studied. I apprenticed. I created. I wrote. I researched. I promised to keep the secrets. I learned. And I performed. Quote:
I haven't been a layman since I was 12. That's a very long time ago. And for you to say that I and only I call myself a magician means that you don't know anything about me. There are a whole lot of people, not just on this forum and not just in this country who call me a very good magician. You probably would, too. But I doubt that I would ever perform for you. Quote:
I never said or implied that anyone who wants to become a magician does not have the right to do so. You are reading things into my posts that I never wrote. I challenge you to find any place where I said that anyone could not aspire to become a magician or anything like that. Quote:
It's not a matter of cheap or expensive. It's a matter of learning magic from the inside out. I don't think the beginner should be relegated to the world of learning how to do the imp bottle and the ball vase for the first couple of years of his training. I think he should find people who can give him a solid foundation in the tools of the craft. You don't need to know how Mickey Silver's Retention Vanish works before you know how a regular one does. It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of depth of knowledge. My previous post made that clear, I think. Quote:
I'm not sure that I understand how to parse this rather odd sentence. I am already the magician that I aspire to be. But I am also learning to be a better one. Every day of the week I learn something new. And I have been doing this for a very long time. A true seeker of magical knowledge is not a problem for me. What is a problem for me is the number of people who are not magicians and have no intention of ever becoming one who have open access to the secrets. Is there any reason that someone should be able to go to Wikipedia, enter the name David Blaine, go down to the bottom of a page where there is a link that says "Explains his levitation trick" and find out how the Balducci levitation works? I don't believe so. I don't think this attracts people to our craft. I think this ruins the Balducci levitation for those who used to do it under the right conditions. I don't have a problem with someone who is a serious seeker of knowledge who goes to a magic dealer, either on the internet or in a shop and asks to learn the Balducci levitation. It's not laid out in the open for all and sundry to poke their grubby little forepaws into. Quote:
How am I the one who is trying to cause a stink? I didn't start this thread. I'm just stating my opinion. If you took the time to do a Google search on who I am or you visited my no exposure web site, you would know exactly who I am and what my qualifications are. Hint "MIMC" does not mean that I do impressions. I can't leave well enough alone, because it isn't well enough. I take the same position on exposure that a reporter takes on the first amendment. I defend the tools of my craft just like a reporter does the tools of his.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
John Cass Regular user 131 Posts |
Troller:
You are picking on the wrong guy here. Bill's credentials are fairly impressive. He has been a full-time pro for more than 30 years, a semi-pro for at least 20 before that. He has translated several magic books from German into English. One of them is in almost every mentalizt's library. That's Paramiracles. He has also written several books. He has lectured and performed in five different countries, and has a video out that is available only in the UK. He has been a member of the IBM and the SAM for more than 25 years. And that thing about the MIMC, well, he is a Member of the Inner Magic Circle. This is a rank in the Magic Circle of London that only 300 living magicians are allowed to have at any one time. So, who calls him a magician? A lot of people, including me. I've known him a long time. At least he has the manners not to brag about himself. |
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
John:
I wish you hadn't posted that. It's almost excessive. It reminds me of that thing that Orson Welles did one time. He showed up to do a live show at a theatre in Minnesota, and there had been a snowstorm. There were only a few people in the audience. So he went out and introduced himself: "My name is Orson Welles. I am an actor, a magician, a musician, a composer, an author, a playwright, a director, a producer and a radio announcer. Isn't it a pity that there are so many of me and so few of you." I always thought that was gratuitous. But very funny.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
troller Loyal user 276 Posts |
Those were retorical questions. I wasn't picking on him. I was also wondering why he answered the originators post when they were actually for originator of this post. And then it suddenly was an attack against me. Of course I am not allowed to express my opinion in front of the 'great one'
So far I have not heard of Bill P and nor am I seeking anything to do with bp. Unless you are offering me an apprenticeship! But thanks for making such good friendly post. Of course whatever he says must be correct.. cause he's go a fan base. Enough of the squabbling then. And be wary of any man that has a pig farm. (Snatch) Let's not get out of hand and start a tennis match. Seems like you are against me and forgot about the original post. So let's stop the fussing about. You are suppose to be above it all remember? |
|||||||||
Nosher Loyal user 261 Posts |
Fascinating discussion and only a century too late...
As has been pointed out, the best way to keep a secret is not to tell it, of course you run the risk of going the way of Greek Fire, but that's another issue. Limited release, disclosure agreements, enforcable contracts - good ideas. A lot of the other ideas mentioned in this thread may work in some panglossian magician's paradise, but not in the real world for two reasons : (a) The internet horse has well and truly bolted and it's far too late to shut the gate (b) Magicians are (with some exceptions of course) LAZY @#$#@^* Case in point, Fox specials : Massed rallies? nope Petition to IBM demanding all subs for one year be put towards an advertising campaign or sponsor mailout or anything at all to make a fuss? Nope. Basic agreement by magical societies worldwide to at least object? Nope. Should a retailer care whether a pro,semi-pro or just a curious, well-heeled dilettante shells out $450 for the latest miracle? Do they? And do magicians reward those retailers that do care by directing all of their business there? Of course some people have railed loudly (albeit unsuccessfully), but we need concrete proposals, a bit of MASSED passion, and lot of Peter Finch magicians sticking their heads out of the window... Writing letters to the editor signed "Shocked and dismayed" is not going to do anything. * please note portions of the above may have been slightly exaggerated for rhetorical effect
Escapemaster-in-chief from all sorts of houdingplaces - Finnegans Wake
|
|||||||||
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Although none of the efforts to combat the Fox specials had any effect on the broadcast when they were originally aired, the efforts of WAM did not go completely unrewarded.
By a letter-writing campaign to each company that sponsored the early specials, by the time the later specials rolled around, the number of paying sponsors had dropped to two. The rest of the spots were PSA's and Fox announcements. And they have finally stopped altogether. Magic dealers are under no obligation to clear their purchasers for their identity. However in the one case I cited, it would have been to their advantage. The magician in that case was also a regular customer who spent a lot of money there. He was also a local judge. You don't want to tick them off.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Guarding Secrets With a Jealous Zeal (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.1 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |