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Missing_Link
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I have to admit-I'm a bit uncomfortable with this forum being dedicated to Gospel Magic.

Not because I have any sort of problem with religious promotion (I don't at all, as long as it is done with respect for the beliefs of others) but, since gospel implies Christian, I feel it excludes magicians of other religions who use magic as a part of their religious practice.

Do others agree? Should this forum focus on performing magic with a message in general (both religious and secular messages)? At times like these, I think inclusion and mutual respect should be fostered in as many ways as possible.

Cheers

ML
BroDavid
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America’s North Coast, Ohio
3182 Posts

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I just don't understand your discomfort. There is no religious promotion ocurring, just because there is a forum that discusses Gospel magic. If that were true, then we could say that other forums promote other religious beliefs - like various psychic beliefs.

While what you say sounds warm and fuzzy, and nice and "inclusive," I wonder if it is really practical, especially in this case.

How many other groups of specific faith, or actual religious beliefs, do you know of that have hundreds, even tens of thousands of Magicians?

And how many of them do you actually know who intentionally use their gifts to educate/inform/share their beliefs?

We cannot be so totally "polically correct" that we absolutely include "everyone" in absolutely "everything."

There are certainly already plenty of places here to post "magic with a message." What is wrong with posting there?

Why should this forum be changed - when it serves so many, just so it can (maybe), serve a few others instead?

You will always find inclusion and mutual respect every where on this board. I don't think it is necessary to try to
"restructure" to get it.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Missing_Link
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Hi BroDavid,

Thanks for the interesting reply

Quote:
On 2002-10-31 10:49, BroDavid wrote:
I just don't understand your discomfort. There is no religious promotion ocurring, just because there is a forum that discusses Gospel magic. If that were true, then we could say that other forums promote other religious beleifs - like various physic beliefs.


That's probably me being a bit unclear Smile I wasn't implying that this particular forum was promoting religion - I was referring to gospel magic in general.

Quote:
While what you say sounds, warm and fuzzy, and nice and "inclusive", I wonder if it is really practical, especially in this case.


So appealing for the recognition of the beliefs of others should be dismissed as a
"warm and fuzzy" notion? To a religious non-Christian, that could be perceived as being rather offensive.

Quote:
How many other groups of specific faith, or actual religious beliefs, do you know of that have hundreds, even tens of thousands of Magicians?

And how many of them do you actually know who intentionally use their gifts to educate/inform/share their beliefs?


Judaism for one. Islam too. There is a Jewish Juggling Society, for example. And, as you suggest that psychic beliefs are religous, haven't you already answered this point?

Quote:
You will always find inclusion and mutual respect everywhere on this board. I don't think it is necessary to try to
"restructure" to get it.


Of course, and I wasn't suggesting that you don't find respect anywhere within the Magic Café. But it wouldn't need a restructure - just a name change.

Thanks for your input, BroDavid, very interesting Smile

Cheers

ML
Georgia Boy
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ML - You willingly came into this forum knowing what it is, only to supposedly ask a question:
"Should this board focus on performing magic with a message in general "

Bro David answered that:
"There are certainly already plenty of places here to post "magic with a message". What is wrong with posting there? "

That wasn't enough for you because apparently you came on to ask a question of which you already had your own forethought on, which equates to me anyway that you're just lookin' to pick a fight. You already made it clear in other posts on this website that you are an atheist. Let me ask you a question, Why does an atheist come into a forum about Gospel Magic and start asking questions regarding if they should have the right to be holding such a forum? Once again it equates to you looking to stir something up. This is a great website, a great bunch of ladies and gentlemen, a great bunch of magicians and a great forum, I would hope you would want to contribute in a more positive manner and save your non-religious convictions for a website more fitting.

Now mind you, I would never want to stop you from your own thought & opinions, but neither would I go to an atheistic website to post scripture.
-Yours truly,
A Former Atheist
BroDavid
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America’s North Coast, Ohio
3182 Posts

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Thanks for your response Missing_Link;

Quote:
On 2002-10-31 11:13, Missing_Link wrote:
So appealing for the recognition of the beliefs of others should be dismissed as a "warm and fuzzy" notion? To a religious non-Christian, that could be perceived as being rather offensive.


Your comment in this case, appears to whisk the discussion away from your original question, and place my response to that question in a totally different context.

I respect the right of others to have specific beliefs, or to have situational beliefs, or not to have any beliefs at all (which, although many say that they have none; it is absolutely impossible, since the belief that you have no beliefs would be a belief system). And I affirm that what you said sounds good on the surface, and we all want to be perceived as "doing the right thing," it is hard to implement in a truly fair way.

Can you take something away from someone, to benefit someone else, and still be completely fair to everyone?

That kind of a discussion sounds a lot like taking a ham sandwich to a synagogue and insisting that anyone there who won't join you in a bite is somehow excluding you and is therefore intolerant!

Somebody will always be offended at something. You can't please everybody all of the time. And running around pleasing one group at the expense of another may seem like a good idea, but in the end you will just wear yourself out. And somebody will still be unhappy. So I accept that I will offend some people. So be it!

The essence of my previous post, was that there already are places for discussion of just about everything here. And this forum does what it does.

So, unless The Magic Café makes the whole site into one big forum, with no specific topics; someone will (by your definition) be "excluded" from each forum - because they weren't specifically "included."

Why should there just be a "Card" forum? Doesn't that exclude the Coin guys?

No! We all have plenty of places to post.

And I have a feeling that if thousands of Jewish jugglers (I personally don't consider juggling magic anyway, no matter who does it, although I recognize it as a difficult and entertaining performing art) came here and made a case that they had enough discussion specifically related to Magical Jewish Juggling, they just might have a case.

But the more immediate reality exists. This place is not a government, nor even a democracy of any kind. It has rules, and a structure. And even if you and I don't agree with the rules, they are still the rules. And the structure is still the structure.

I have seen The Café refined and changed over time. But usually it is for the greater good. So now, you have made your point. And if change will take place, it will not be from the posters in this forum, but by Café management. So futher discussion on this topic would really seem pretty pointless since we can not effect change, and besides most of us here in this forum, pretty much have a vested interest in status quo. Smile

But thanks for stirring things up! It is always interesting to be thinking about what we believe.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Missing_Link
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Hello Georgia Boy

Quote:
On 2002-10-31 11:49, Georgia Boy wrote:
ML - You willingly came into this forum knowing what it is, only to supposedly ask a question:

"Should this board focus on performing magic with a message in general "

Why does an atheist come into a forum about Gospel Magic and start asking questions regarding if they should have the right to be holding such a forum? Once again it equates to you looking to stir something up.


Surely being an atheist doesn't preclude me from being interested in the opinions of non-atheists, does it? I'm not a coin magician, but I still visit the coin discussion board. Radical!

And in my original post, I didn't challenge the right to have a forum for the discussion of gospel magic. I suggested that it might be good to include other religions and beliefs. No harm in that, is there? I'm not looking for a fight (I'm not the agressive type) but I was just expressing my opinion. Each to their own - disagree at your leisure.

Cheers

ML


Hi BroDavid,

Quote:
On 2002-10-31 12:55, BroDavid wrote:

So, unless The Magic Café makes the whole site into one big forum, with no specific topics; someone will (by your definition) be "excluded" from each forum - because they werent specifically "included".

Why should there just be a "Card" forum? doesn't that exclude the Coin guys?

No! We all have plenty of places to post.


I realise that you can't please all of the people, all of the time. My point is that it would be good to open out the gospel magic section to include others who use magic to convey a message. As I've said elsewhere, I sometimes use my act, where appropriate, to convey a political or social message. I know from reading this board, that I can learn a great deal from gospel magicians and, possibly, vice versa. The methodology behind what we do is similar - only the message is different. So my thinking is that discussions would be enriched by encouraging those using magic to convey any message to join in. I think that would be positive.

Glad you've enjoyed the discussion. Me too!

Cheers

ML
Georgia Boy
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Quote:

Er, surely being an atheist doesn't preclude me from being interested in the opinions of non-athiests, does it? I'm not a coin magician, but I still visit the coin discussion board. Radical!



Neither do you go onto the Coin board and ask them why they're leaving out all the Sponge-guys.

As I said, you came in here a sniper looking for a target. You ask questions, have them answered, then ask questions about the answers, when all along you already know what you want to hear and what you want to say. You are see thru friend.

It would also do you good to look up the word Gospel before commenting on it. Now the part you're gonna hate > I love you anyway!
Burt Yaroch
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Dallas,TX
1097 Posts

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Thanks everyone for the interesting thoughts.

I think BroDavid summed up the argument nicely in that the structure of the Café isn't random or non-secular (purposefully or otherwise). We have the forums in place that we do as Mr. Steve Brooks and Co. recognized the need for these forums. Perhaps over time as needs change and others arise, we will see the advent of new forums and the evolution of others. Smile

And if any member has ideas in which direction we should grow please feel free to discuss them in the appropriate forum (perhaps I want to see the Manager?).

Any genuine concerns about secularism, anti-Semitism, or any other prejudice should be addressed promptly and directly to Mr. Scott Guinn via PM.

Thanks! Smile
Yakworld.
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