This is problem number 2 in a series. To read problem number 1 and to understand the guidelines for posting, please read this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=0#3

ETHICS PROBLEM #2

Situation: Thrifty MacFrugal is a student of magic. Being on a rather tight budget, he tries to get as much out of his magic purchases as possible. He always buys his material from reputable sources. Whenever he buys a book, video, or DVD, he studies the material intensely. When he feels that he has learned the material well, he then places the item for sale on Ebay. As a result, he has a great deal of magical knowledge, but almost nothing in his magic library. He never makes any kind of copy of his material, so once an item is sold, he has no further access to it.

Question: Is he acting ethically?

Discuss.

Indubitably.

I will concede I would find him foolish for his actions.

Is he performing any of the material from those books he has sold?

If so, this goes back to the grant of license question.

I see no problem with selling media no longer needed.

Jaz, what constitutes grant of license for the material in use?

Then one would tear out the page or keep the vid/dvd sleeve with the license on and sell the remainder.

I don't see a problem with selling or even giving away magic that doesn't work for you...whether its a book that just wasnt what you hoped it would be or not as useful to you as you thought...or some prop you no longer use. I don't see a problem with it. First because someone should get some use from it and I only keep things I really like or use. As far as giving away something you like I don't get that at all...nor do I know anyone who wouldn't want to keep the things they apply in their magic close at hand. Unless you have a photographic memory, you are going to want to go back to the source as a reference.
Peace Beth

This would be akin to learning something from a book or video in the magic club library. Most of the time, when people find something they like, they purchase it.

But this specific example is really a sticky one. Once you have something firmly implanted in your memory, it's going to be pretty hard to forget it. To be absolutely ethical, he should probably keep the material he performs.

With props, this isn't a problem. You buy a haunted hank, you can perform the haunted hank until you sell it. Material in books is different.

You can keep the memories in your mind.

As a side note -- a friend of mine is in the costume rental business. He also sells magic. He runs a very lucrative business in DVD's and VHS videos. He rents them. Some of his suppliers got very angry when they learned that he was renting these videos, claiming it was illegal. It isn't. The interesting thing is that Most of the renters, if they like a video, they buy it. They generally don't copy them.

What about when the DVD clearly states on the cover it is not for rental purposes?

Well he's certainly acting legally as he doesn't retain copies. Is he acting ethically; I'd say "yes," even if he performs the material.

I don't think physical possession of the book etc is a licence to perform. What about the guy who likes to borrow magic books from the library? He gains knowledge, he improves himself, he has fun, and he enjoys showing his magic. Are we going to tell him he has to stop performing the instant he returns a book. That's not ethics, it's simply nonsense.

As for Thrifty, I'd advise him to take a trip round the internet. There's plenty of legit material to be had for free.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Rephrase it for my simple and under educated mind.

Are you asking 'what gives someone the right someone to perform a trick from a newly published media source they purchased?'

To me it reads like you're suggesting that as long as someone bought the media new, and holds onto it, that it's OK to perform but if it's sold then the rights to perform anything learned from it is unethical.

Sorry if I'm interpreting this wrong Jonathan.


Posted: Sep 10, 2005 8:39pm
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Oop! Just read Ethical Problem #1.
OK Jonathan.
My bad.

Yes Jaz, I am making that suggestion as an ethical axiom in magicdom.

I just don't think it works that way...magicians keep the things they perform...right? I've never met anyone who sells the good stuff...ok my favorite book on rings is Rings in Your Fingers by Fitzkee. I would never sell that.... ever. We sell all the crappy stuff we can't believe we ever bought haha. Anyone sell something you perform... I've never known anyone to do that?

Interesting responses. This is a particularly difficult one for me to answer, as my reaction is based more on my own particular biases than an objective, rational view of the situation.

I have every book, tape and DVD on magic that I have ever bought. My ever-swelling collection occupies a considerable amount of space in our apartment (a fact that my wife finds extremely irritating). I would never even think of parting with any of it. However, I have no rational argument for this; it's simply my view of how the material should be treated.

Ostensibly, I have no justifiable rationale for this attitude. From a purely objective, rational point of view, a magic book is no different from any other work; if I can sell a history text book or a best-selling novel without anyone crying foul, there's no reason I can't do the same with a magic book. After all, a magic book is the same as other books, and should be treated as such.

And yet... I find that a magic book IS different, at least to me. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it contains secrets, and secrets seem to be things that need to be treated with more respect than other, more mundane facts. Unfortunately, this is a purely emotional argument, and emotions are notoriously unreliable as guide posts for ethical behavior. I have no persuasive argument to offer here, other than that my gut tells me that there's something strangely wrong with parting with magic material. I can't explain it, but I can't ignore it, either.

To be fair, I can't really condemn people who choose to sell or give away their magic stuff. After all, the fact that I wouldn't do something doesn't justify my criticizing someone else who might make a different choice. I wouldn't buy a CD by the Backstreet Boys, for example, but I wouldn't condemn someone who did (although I might mock them mercilessly for their questionable taste and lack of discernment).

The bottom line? It may not make much sense, but if pushed to give an answer, I would have to say, "It may be ethical, but doggone it, it just ain't right!"

So, if I understand what some have written, if I buy a book of songs and arrangements, and learn some things that remain in my active memory and repertoire, I ethically cannot give away the book or sell it.

However, based on the library arguments from the first ethical question, if I had borrowed the book from the library, rather than buying it myself, I would be ethically in the right to perform the pieces.

The burden, then, falls on the shoulders of a person who buys it, rather than just using the general library license. Hmm... that doesn't seem consistent, for some reason...

You got it "Ignore me...", there is an issue of license involved somewhere for magic items. To my thinking so far it comes down to exchanging something for the secret one uses.

"Ignore me..." doesn't have it. But he does stumble into the best argument for performance rights in magic. It doesn't matter if buy, beg, borrow, steal, or get your song book from a library. Your right to perform that material is not gained through the acquiring of the "how to". Same holds true for plays.

But we are lapsing into a discussion about legalities, not ethics. The two are very different.

Cheers,

Tom

How do we distinguish the license to use a gaffed coin, a license to have a gaff custom made, and the license to use the gaffed coin in performance?

The legislation of morality is an old saw that does not cut. Exploring and codifying morality has some benefits though.

The poser about what grants license, or as IM put it the want of a concrete license, may be a key to this puzzle.

Jonathan:

What do you mean by license? That's theoretical, right? Is there an actual license recognized by a court of law involved when you buy a folding coin? I think this is confusing the issue at hand, ethics.

Tom said:


Ethically speaking (not legally), in your opinion, how do you gain the right to perform an effect?

Since we don't live in an ancient Greek police, laws and ethics are not the same things.

My feeling is that the intent of purchase of magic items is to grant license to use the magic items or the data that are associated with the items. In the case of a book, the IP, the secrets are presented with intent that the reader would put them to use. If we are trading money for something, the something would be the data. As Tom mentioned earlier, performance rights (usually to scripted works) don't exist in magic at this time. I posit that the performance rights are give by implication that magic is a performing art and the intended use of a secret in magic is that it be used to entertain in performance. In parallel, the car you buy is intended to roll on the highways. When you sell the car, you usually turn in the plates, and don't drive it anymore.

For now, I suggest we look at possession of a thing (data or prop) as license to use it in performance.