This is problem number 6 in a series. To read problem number 1 and to understand the guidelines for posting, please read this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=0#3

ETHICS PROBLEM #6

Situation: Adam is a hobbyist magician with a large collection. Ben is a performing magician. Adam routinely lends books, tapes, and DVDs to his friend Ben, who often incorporates the material he learns into his act.

Question: Are both Adam and Ben acting ethically?

Discuss.

I suppose Ben could hire Adam as his reviewer and librarian and as such, the arrangment seems pretty good so long as Adam does not start disposing of the books.

I'm trying to get my head around why Adam has to keep the books. If Ben had borrowed the books from a library, would he only be allowed (ethically) to perform the effects while he was still in possession of the books?

Jonathan could you elaborate on "disposing of the books".

Sure JTW, let's say I posses a copy of the book Our Magic in hardcover. The very existance of that hardcover book is mine to preserve or to destroy. Such is the basic notion of property. I can sell the book to someone. I can make a safe from it. I have the right to destroy or mutilate the thing. I can give the book to someone. In all these cases I have decided the disposition of the book.

I tend to give books away. I look at many and unless the thing speaks to me, I try to pass it on to someone for whom it would bring value. There are a few I have had, given away, then later decided to acquire again over the years. Many are old books and I have allergies to dust and mold and all that other stuff that happens to old paper.

Thanks Jonathan.

Are we assuming that Adam has no knowledge of the principles contained within the books, videos and DVDs? If that is the case then I'm with Jonathan no problems. Adam could be hired as a reviewer/librarian. What if Adam has read and watched the material? What if the information is applied to a different situation than the book or video describes? When does the knowledge become Adam's?

Are consultants hired for their knowledge or libraries? I don't think they are.

edited- Upon further reading perhaps my questions are better off under the second ethics question.

Good question JTW. Some works are historical or offered for entertainment.

The works I am considering are primary source and instructional. When an inventor is offering novel works, it stands to reason that folks would not be aware of the methods, strategies and mehcanics of the works offered.

Let's discuss the works of copyists another time.

Just had a thought...

Are the books we buy analogous to textbooks (a manual of instruction)? If not why?

What if a computer programmer after reading and memorizing his programming books sells all of the back to a university? Can he use the coding techniques he learned from them?

Jonathan could you clarify your use of the word "copyists" in relation to my previous post?
thanks,
JTW

There are some in our community who have taken it upon themselves to teach the works of others.

I have a video of Alex Elmsley performing and explaining some of his magic. In this series he discusses and explains his Ghost Count. Such a video is a primary source for the Ghost Count.

I have heard of other works, not by Alex Elmsley where the author and performer have explained the Ghost Count in order to teach a novel routine, say Sam Schwartz's packet trick Back Flip or similar.

We also have works pretty much entirely composed of explanations of other people's works. I have no idea if Alex Elmsley has given anyone permission to teach his card count. Such works are both derivative and serve to copy or replace the original description offered by Alex Elmsley himself.

If I want to see the Vernon routine with the cups and balls, I can find one of Dai Vernon's performances on video. An offered performance for instructional purposes by anyone else would be a copy.

To the best of my knowledge we don't have footage of John Ramsay doing his cups and balls routine. We do have the Farelli text and thanks to his student Andrew Galloway, he have some access to a reasonable copy of his works for instructional purposes. Is the guy a copyist? I would say that he is and is doing so intentionally and also that his offering is for the community and does not replace any more direct source of what he has to offer about his teacher's works.

I hope this gets the idea of primary sources, and interpretations of existing primary sources as "copy" across without pointing any fingers or offering any judgments about any specific members of our community.

Thanks Jonathan.

Welcome JTW.

Let's keep a focus on Adam and Ben to see where their arrangement might do with some refinement or clarification.

To clarify the issue a bit more:

Adam owns the material, but doesn't perform it.
Ben performs the material, but doesn't own it.

Adam is lending the material with the understanding that Ben will acquire the information and utilize it.

Are both acting ethically?

"Food for thought
This is the area to discuss creativity,theory,and psychology in our magic."

If you want an Ethics Forum, ask Steve Brooks and he may consider it. That would be a much more ethical way of getting one and I could avoid it in advance, rather than be deluged on this form.

Frank Tougas

Frank:

I think that ethics fits under the idea of theory quite well. Sorry you don't find the topic useful, but based on the response these threads have received, you seem to be in the minority. Since your post seems to have contributed nothing more useful than a complaint, I would like to invite you to avoid all of these threads in the future. Since I have clearly labeled what they are, that shouldn't be too difficult.

I have made a request of the café staff to open an Ethics in Magic section.

I find these topics and discussions useful and in some ways they are opening up lines of discourse about what makes us magicians among magicians. What are the good habits of our virtual polis here at the café?

It seems to me that having a place to open up a discussion using a hypothetical example would benefit all involved and save us from issues of finger pointing and hard feelings later.

There's my two cents worth.

Jonathan, good idea. Ethics in Magic forum would be great to consolidate these type of topics. I myself find them interesting and quite informative.

Personally by Adam lending his books to Ben who then profits from it is very unethical. Ben "should" be paying for the rights and legal property to uses his props/products/tricks. But don't be shocked this type of action has undoubtly been going on for years