Interesting enough, it wasn't the finger flash on the take that stood out to me on the deal. It was the dead thumb anchoring the top card and the rhythm/timing as the greek was taken that caught my eye.

p.s. Nice video quality...

Thanks for sharing the video Halcon. Is the false deal a project of yours for magic? I was confused by your use of bees, when a bordered deck shows up false deals. The third and fourth deals looked better to me than the first two, as something seemed to shift from grip to relaxed in your right hand third and fourth fingers. That's watching with sound off. I will give a listen later on or if you post another video using a deck with bordered backs like bikes etc.

This is a tough call I guess.

The ONLY reason I would ever post a video would be to get criticism. I wouldn't post it for any other reason. If I didn't get any criticism, or pointers, I'd feel insulted, because I would think that no one was telling me the truth. There's almost always something that can be improved.

So what happens when people give direct, honest criticism, either positive or negative? How do we handle that and deal with it? Do we take it as an insult, whether it's intended that way or not?

The only way technique gets better is through proper practice, proper understanding and analysis. There have been some comments made here that have provided things that can be worked on with respect to this video of the Greek Deal. There was finger flash. Some have felt it was bad, some felt the flashing was minimal. Depends on your perspective. That could be worked on. Isn't that a helpful thing? Isn't that the point of posting a video like this to a public forum? Because if that's not the point, then what is the alternative???

I will offer one piece of advice which comes from several good years of experience and having had a very good teacher. It's just something to try...

With the left thumb, gently slant, or "bevel" the deck to the right. What caught my eye was the perfectly squared condition of the deck. If you beveled a little, the location of the deal will be far less noticable. The deck can easily become it's own screen.

I hope this makes sense. Give it a try and feel free to PM me if you need me to describe it in more detail or even record a quick video clip for you.

Best,

Chris.

I see.

Now everything's PC again.

I think the important thing about this deal is not how well it was performed but how well it might be if the technique is new. If Herbe Zarrow had introduced his new shuffle here would we whine if he could not perform it well? Would we say Herbe your too old that looked bad so we don't want to know about it.

I would like to know if this no get ready technique is new? Yes I can see they are not coming of the top but that might be cured with practice. It does not make the idea bad. Some can write a good song and not be able to sing like Elvis but the song might be great.

Tommy,

that's a very good point. Well said!

Hi Jason, just out of curiousity, who's false deal did get by you?

Sean

I am posting to this thread now because a previous post of mine has been removed. It was no longer germaine to the discussion, since the issues it addressed have also been removed. I am not interested in commenting on the ad hominem nature of some of the deleted posts, nor the tangents that evolved in this thread. I AM interested in one facet of the discussion, and it may be that we should spin this off into another topic. For now, though, I'll post here, since everyone involved will know what I'm referring to. That facet is the WAY in which we "criticize" each other, and the way we assess "the work" we all aspire to.

It is a shame that this thread has been altered. It no longer reflects the opinions of some of the participants. Valuable opinions, in MY opinion. I understand the need to "police" the material in a certain way, there is some behavior that may be considered generally unacceptable (though I don't believe we were in that territory on this thread). Regardless, some valuable criticism is no longer available. If you read it before the thread alteration, I suggest you keep it in mind. This is not to say that the criticism was valid, or that the personal attacks were warranted, but the general view, and the underlying philosophy of the poster(s) in question are worth evaluating.

There IS far too much "mutual admiration" in magic, and there always has been. I remember, as a young man, thinking that some of the things I saw at magic club meetings were AWFUL. But, if I said so, what would THEY say about me? If I wanted everyone to like me, and my magic, I better be nice! I had to admit, to myself, that ego played a part in my lack of honesty. I wanted to be a part of this magic thing, not to be the guy who was on the outside. If I wanted them to say good things about me I'd better do the same for them. Besides, everyone EXCEPT me seemed to think the stuff was great! Maybe I was the one who was wrong, maybe I was too critical. After all, they can't ALL be wrong, can they? Am I the ONLY one who sees this stuff for what it is? Bad magic? They can't ALL be patronizing each OTHER, can they? I MUST be wrong... (You may be relating to this, lots of the people I've talked to over the years have...)

One of the reasons that I stopped attending local club meetings, going to conventions, attending lectures, etc. was BECAUSE of this tendency. I realize that it is hard to accept criticism, and sometimes it is offered without solicitation, it is unwanted. Or, the party offering it is not established in the performer's view, in a way that gives his criticism any validity. Still, most people, it seems to me, seek "Confirmation, Not Information"...

I stopped "helping" folks when it became clear that all they wanted was to be told how great things looked. I have a reputation for brutal honesty regarding the execution of slieghts and the performance of material. I also have a reputation for offering SOLUTIONS to the problems I observe. But don't ask ME what I think unless you really want to know, because that's what I'm going to tell you, what I REALLY think! And that's what I expect back when I ask for criticism. However, I only have those discussions with people whose opinions I value. I don't accept unsolicited advice, and I don't offer it, either. If you post a video of your work and ask for feedback in a public forum, though, you'd better be prepared for the answers you get. Don't be offended by frank observations - you asked for them!

I would like to see some things change - the sweeping generalizations, ad hominem attacks, "straw man" arguments, etc. do nothing to further the goal, if indeed it is the goal, of bettering performance. Would anyone be interested in setting up some criteria for frank discussions about works in progress? How to critique the material, how to establish that the "critics" have the "bona fides" to be offering constructive criticism in the first place, etc.? Defining the goals, the process, the level of expertise needed to assess peer performance, etc. seems like a good way to start, but perhaps this is too gargantuan a project to consider. I don't know, but I DO know that the way we do things now seems not to be particularly satisfactory. When everyone agrees that something is wonderful we are all "happy". As soon as a dissenting opinion is offered the thread disintegrates. It devolves to a shouting match, with all sorts of harmful, mean-spirited commentary diverting the thread until the result is an edited, or deleted thread. Hardly the most beneficial use of our time as a community. We NEED those dissenting opinions. I am reminded of this quote:" When men smile and agree, progress weeps..." Any feedback?

Best, PSC

Paul,

I, too, recieved a PM saying that my post had been deleted. Now, my post was a slight interjection on the topic of an accomplished cardman's credentials and/or accomplishments, and was expendable. That is, I don't mind that it was deleted. On the other hand, I had a hard time understanding why certain posts were deleted and others were not. I feel, as well, that some of the posts which were deleted contained information that was valuable to say the least.

It is a shame that these threads here are commonly diluted by mudraking and highly concentrated immaturity. We are fortunate to have this resource to communicate with many top notch cardmen, and I fear that this privilege is in grave danger. I think that with all of the insulting, back slapping, self-promotion, outright LIES, and most of all SELECTIVE AND SUBJECTIVE MODERATION, the resident experts that dwell here may soon "move out." This will certainly be a sad day for me, and I don't even practice magic.

Mr. Chosse, I have enjoyed your posts and those of many other members of the Café. I can only hope that these issues of which we speak may be some day regulated, MODERATED, and eventually eradicated. Again, Paul, nice post; very apropos.

Now, I crush my soapbox and will brace myself for all of the trash-talk that will undoubtedly ensue.

Card Cheat

It would help this community, if the "dissenting opinion" was offered in a pleasant and unoffensive way. The reason the thread was altered, was because of this "dissenting opinion".

Yiannis,

I would respectfully disagree. And unless you are the editor of the thread, (you aren't), how could you know that? In fact, I DO know why the thread was altered. The dissenting opinion may have played a role in the threads editing, but the responses to that opinion played an equally important role. It is that type of back and forth name-calling and personal attack I'm opposing. There was no service to the community in the attack on a movie, or it's producers or stars, anymore than there was in the choice of words the author of the dissenting opinion used to characterize your perceptions. I may have agreed with his views, but I don't know that I would have chosen the same way to convey those convictions. Regardless, you can hardly place ALL the blame on Damian. Had everyone ignored his post the thread would have remained unaltered. As to my original point, any feedback?

Best, PSC

Mr. Chosse,

there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone. Regarding your fame and status in the magic world, I respect your opinion and quite enjoy your posts.

The incident with Mr. Damien is something that, as you said, happens so often in the magic circles all around the world. And this phenomenon is not unique only in the magic profession. Every art and every craft suffers the same everywhere. It's allways been there and it allways will. Some can take it, others can't and decide to withdraw.

The best we can do is to offer our opinion in good spirit and having in mind that politeness is the way to go. Frank, but polite. Critical, but helpfull. And of course being absolute in your opinion is, at least in my eyes, childish.

Yiannis, I think you misunderstand me. I've been as diplomatic as possible. I'm sure this thread will be edited again, but before that happens let me say this: I agree with most of what Damian wrote - I simply would have written it differently...

And I tried to avoid this by asking that we focus on how to best work with one another - twice! You continue to go back personal issues I have tried to avoid. Once again, does anyone have any ideas about establishing some criteria for criticism?

By the way, are you saying that there are no absolutes? Just curious...

Best, PSC

Ok I'll give it a shot. If I were to put up a video clip of myself performing to be viewed and judged, I would back up my clip with an essay that explains my viewpoint on the inner workings of the effect, the timing, the rhythm, proper mis-direction etc. In other words, I would simply explain why I did things the way I did.
The next time I come back to the Café and see critcism I would immediately look for posts that say anything to this effect:
Nice!
Is that in print?
Is that your own?
Why do a pass when you can cut the cards?
Looks like something so and so did back in 1597
etc. etc. etc.
Then I would ignore those posts. What I would look for is POSITIVE CRITICISM from an experienced eye. Now how would I know if you're experienced or not? It's not too hard to figure out if someone is experienced or not by reading their posts. (By the way, being inexperienced is not bad. It's a great thing! It's the time when your interests are strong and you soak up everything like a sponge. You're not jaded. God I miss that! So take the time to enjoy it!) But I digress. Some of the posts that are put up on the Café have glaring tells of infancy in the art of magic. And I would bet that most of the people who post in such a manner here would not act the same way at a magic convention where a bunch of "big names" (for lack of a better phrase) were attending. For example: When I was in Boston for the S.A.M. I met Herb Zarrow for the first time. Could you imagine what it would be like if I asked for his opinion on my take on the Zarrow shuffle? Let's pretend he said it sucked and here's why. Now let's pretend that he offered his advice, tried to help me with the shuffle and then I told him he was an idiot. Boy, I sure showed him didn't I? I really got the upper hand there didn't I?
Here on the Café, for some reason however, people always feel the need to chime in. And many times in an desctructive manner that helps no one. (Sometimes I really wonder what the population in the Café would be if it were mandatory for everyone to post a head shot of themselves.) This type of posting does NOTHING to help magicians grow as performers or performing artists. Ok now I'm just ranting so back to the topic. The short version.

I want to know...
Am I flashing?
Is my timing off?
Do I have tells?
If so, where are they?
Are there any suggestions on how I could overcome those tells?
Is the sleight appropriate for the effect? Why or why not?
What's my rhythm like?
Is it entertaining?
Could the effect be streamlined?
Could the effect be enhanced?
Do I even UNDERSTAND the effect myself? (This should be evident in my handling)
Is it magical?
Is it a puzzle?

I'm sure I could think of more but off the top of my head, these are some of the thing I would look for to improve myself.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell

Let me ask hypothetical questions:
Assume Y puts up a video and asks for opinion.

Is it OK for X to state his opinion that Y is better than Z?


By OK I mean is it polite to Z.

I am not sure it is because Z did not ask for an opinion.

What if I see Lennart Green perform and come here and say in my opinion Green is better than Marlo and Vernon put together. Lets assume every one agreed with this, isn’t it still impolite not only to Marlo and Vernon but impolite to Green. I think it would embarrass Green even if it was true.

I think it is impolite but it is necessary to make comparisons. Isn’t it?

If so how can you make a comparison without being impolite?

Or maybe it is not impolite?

Those who post a sleight, routine or video are usually asking for suggestions and constructive criticism.
If they just want confirmation that they've mastered something then they shouldn't post.

I like Dorian's "I want to know... "list.
If there are certain questions the poster wants a response to he should ask.

All replies should be courteous. If this can't be done then I suggest keeping your fingers off the keyboard.

If more people read and abided by the Café's "Café rules and etiquette (Please Read)" it would be a good thing.

Who is John Galt?

Everyone is going to have an opinion. That is something that no one can ever change. So let's manage the manageable here. If you were to put up a video and I said it was better than Marlo, Vernon and everyone else how does that help you improve? It doesn't. I might as well just pat you on the back, say, "nice job" and contribute to the mutual admiration that is so prevalent in magic. The real question here is how do we, as a community, move away from destructive criticsm and personal attacks and focus on helping one another in an honest and positive manner? This is one of the things Paul was getting at in one of the above posts.

Best,

Dorian Rhodell