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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
Quote: Now I believe I've got the question.
On 2005-09-23 18:00, Patrick Differ wrote: Yes I can teach magic. The mechanics are the easiest part, it is the mannerisms, what you say, what you don't say, what is implied, what I call the philosophy of deception that is in essence the magic of the trick. The mechanics are taught by drills, over and over until every move appears natural. Then comes the teaching, discussions of the nuances of the effect. What are you trying to accomplish, what should it look like, how would it look if you could actually do it, etc. Teching a trick could be done in 30 min. or less, like the old Dominos Pizza Delivery comercials. Teaching the magic could take from several hours to several class sessions. What makes me sure is I have done it in the past. Not created clones of myself, which is what I believe Mr. Townsend referred to with people taught by Slydini, but students who can take in all I've taught them and produce an effect that is uniquely theirs, similar to but different from my version. There is no better way to learn a thing than to teach it. But that is a philosophical bent for perhaps another time and thread. Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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RandyStewart Inner circle Texas (USA) 1989 Posts |
I can't take part in this thread from a teaching standpoint but certainly from one of being "taught". A couple of my mentors taught me the secrets to many effects. They showed me the overall effect, the materials involved, if possible, the various methods to achieve the effect, execution, but most importantly, taught me to develop my own style. With me they've always had an eager student. Consequently, they've always had confidence in me to bring enough raw talent and tenacity to make a gem of any effect that INTERESTS ME.
Can magic be taught? Sure it can. Where that lesson in magic goes beyond that point is another question. Whether the student can grasp what is being taught and apply it to a performance is a big question mark. While in grade school I was forced into violin classes. Half the kids, myself included, abhored that daily hour session. Oh geez it was the most loathsome and longest hour of our lives. Our teacher played for a symphony (forget which and really didn't care) and was extremely competent. She eventually lost her cool with us and hollared "I teach you well and you don't learn!". One day she blasted out "I'm costing your school $75.00 an hour to drive out here and teach you! Make it worthwhile!". In that situation we had a pro violinist, excellent lessons in music, fertile young minds, and lousy results. What they failed to do was ask for a show of hands from those who didn't want to be there. Given the free time on the weekend and a few dollars in my pocket, you found me not practicing that fiddle or doing homework but Downtown peering into the display cases of Viking Magic Co (Collector's Workshop) and LEARNING everything I could about magic. I'm still being taught by some of the best and excited to learn it. |
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Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
On second thought...
I wouldn't want to teach magic. I'd probably end up getting extremely upset at the world and make everyone dissappear in a moments notice!
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
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Cliffg37 Inner circle Long Beach, CA 2491 Posts |
Speaking from my point of view as a high school science teacher, I can tell you that I have had magic classes at various times in my career.
Usually it is a disaster. Teaching magic might be farily simple if one had a student who.. A) wants to learn to do magic B) Is willing and comfortable in practicing long hours C) has the time and lack of peer presure to stay focused D) does not get bored too easily If there is a combination of all that, it might work out. The most successful magic club I ever had ended badly when our box jumper (who was the club president's girlfriend) found herself in the family way and the vice president (best friend to the pres) was to blame. Now I am thinking of high school kids here, and I think that college level or older might be easier. and yet, how many stories to you hear about magician who started learning in elementary school? they are everywhere.
Magic is like Science,
Both are fun if you do it right! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-26 14:57, Cliffg37 wrote: Um... agreed. Usually legal too.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
I guess he really was a president in charge of vice. What I may have failed to mention in my previous post is that while it was a class of several people, each was going at their own speed and essentially it was one on one private lessons in a group format.
The synergy created by a roomful of interested people studying different things created the kind of interest it took to A. keep students coming, B. get them to sign up for more advanced work and C. created a sort of community of magicians in training. Also no one was under the age of 25 - that also makes a difference in level of committment and willingness to put in the time after paying the hard earned money. Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
For the past three years, I have taught magic classes at a local public library as a summer program. Per library policy, the classes are free (I donate my time), but each child must pay a $25 "equipment fee" for their props (C/S Coin, Cups & Balls set, Dime & Penny Set, Svengali Deck, Ball & Vase, some silks, a wand, etc.).
The $25 fee usually separates the merely curious from the truly interested. I limit the class to children in grades 6-8, so that they are old enough to grasp and handle what we are doing, but not too old to be jaded. I also cap the class at 12 kids, so I can give each one some personal attention. There are four one-hour classes, each one held once a week, so the entire program runs for about a month. My goal is not to create polished magicians, but to provide an introduction to the world of magic. I teach some basic sleights (finger palm, thumb palm, French Drop, false transfer) and misdirection techniques, and then show how they apply equally to coins, balls and other items. I use mostly "utility items" so that the children can come up with their own routines, and we go into patter, showmanship and presentation. For those who are interested in learning more, I direct them to the Café' and one or two online magic shops, with a few suggestions of where to go from here (mostly Mark Wilson or the Tarbell Course). If the feedback I've received from the parents as well as the children is any guide, I feel that I've been successful in initiating many of the children into the world of magic. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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Frank Tougas Inner circle Minneapolis, MN 1712 Posts |
You are doing magic a service Seth, If even one of those class members decides to pursue magic as a hobby, avocation or even as a vocation, you will have given them some decent information to act as a springboard.
And if they don't, you have at least shown them there is more to life than rap and videogames. Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
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Pachin Regular user 153 Posts |
I am a student of magic!!!. I study the art of deception on a daily basis when time permits. Who are my teachers ? The authors of the books that I read, the performers of the DVDs that I purchase and the magicians at the lecturers and conventions that I attend to.
Some teachers are very good, others need to repeat several times what they taught or said. But hey all have the time and patience for me to learn. They give me a lot of homework to do too, which is evaluated by external teachers. They score and grade my homework by clapping, smiling or just by staying quite. My teachers give me the tools about what, why, when and how the deception is to be accomplished. It is up to me to use all these tools to mold, transform and combine mysterious effects into a marvelous concert of deceptions. " YES YOU CAN TEACH MAGIC " |
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
Thanks Frank, for the kind words. I figure that if you plant enough apple seeds, someday you'll have lots of apple trees!!
I forgot to mention that I have all the children in my magic classes take the "Magician's Oath" before we start, and I explain that a good magician NEVER reveals his secrets. I tell them that these secrets may seem simple (the "one-ahead" principle, the C/S coin, etc.), but they have successfully fooled people for hundreds of years precisely because they are simple -- and very effective. So I ask that they respect these secrets and guard them well. I also explain the difference between serious teaching and learning (which is what I'm doing with them) and exposure, which is just revealing secrets for no good reason. This should be self-evident, but I thought it was important to mention. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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Patrick Differ Inner circle 1540 Posts |
Sethb
You have something I don't have. And it looks good on you. I really do believe that magic can be taught. I was taught. Yet, I know that I can't teach it. I can't do it because I won't quantify it. I know what it is, I know what it looks like, I know what it feels like. But if you ask me to tell you, I'll run around in circles like my head's on fire and the rest of me is catching. End result=zero. I had a good teacher; a man named Larry. He worked at Circus Circus Vegas magic shop about 25 years ago. I remember because of his foot. And he told me nothing. He steered me in the direction I wanted to go and encouraged me to think. But, again, he told me nothing. I was an avid student. That's the way it happened. And another thing. I believe that reitteration of basics is a good thing. Students should be reminded constantly that magic is a medium of secrets; not just the technical side, but also for every other reason that anyone can think of. Say it again. Then say it again. Then say it again. And again. Again. This will do no harm.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there. Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair -can ne'er come down again. |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Whether it's magic, painting, music, comedy, writing--you can teach technique, but you can't teach someone to be a great artist. You can teach someone how to do card tricks in a convincing way, but you can't teach them how to be as compelling a performer as Ricky Jay.
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sethb Inner circle The Jersey Shore 2719 Posts |
Patrick, I think you need to look at this from a different perspective. Teaching is nothing more than sharing -- sharing knowledge that you already have.
I am not a teacher by profession, nor have I ever taken any teaching courses. But I did have a desire to share my knowledge. So I sat down, made an outline of what I thought I could do, how I would do it, and a list of the props that were needed. Then I pitched the idea to my local public library. They were thrilled with the proposal. My first classes were not perfect, and I did not turn out miniature David Copperfields. But the children had a great time, and some of them may eventually take up magic as a hobby or even a vocation. I also had a great time, and learned as much from my students as they did from me. If you really want to learn something, try teaching it to someone else! I'm not saying that everyone can be a great teacher; obviously there are some teachers that are much more efficient or inspring than others. But I believe that everyone can share -- it just takes a little patience, time and some elbow grease. SETH
"Watch the Professor!!" -- Al Flosso (1895-1976)
"The better you are, the closer they watch" -- Darwin Ortiz, STRONG MAGIC |
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Ignore me... Loyal user 230 Posts |
I have to follow up on something that Bill P. mentioned earlier, as it relates to the Slydini concepts that were raised as well.
When I teach music, I try to instill in students the reason for particular technique and body positioning. I DON'T make it an authoritarian approach, but instead talk about the reasons for WHY the body part (wrists, for example) should be kept free from stress, and then about ways of approaching a stress-free position. When I teach sleight of hand, I always get into the concept that a move should look just like a non-move. I start by asking a person to just sit and talk with me, and after a bit, I ask them not to move. I point out their own body positioning and body language, so that they start to become conscious of exactly what is natural movement to them. I give them the tools to start developing their OWN hidden language, one that won't give off tells as it is based on them, not on emulating someone else. Granted, some are better at this than others; not everyone can observe themselves well, and for some, it takes some serious video sessions before they see what it looks like when they really put that thing into the other hand. Still, the idea that someone would work slavishly to imitate someone else's motions, when those motions will only be a poorly fitting set of clothes from someone else, is sad and indicative of a waste of effort. I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic from the thrust of the thread, whether a person can be taught to create magic for others. In keeping with that, and to continue with Bill's comments, even if a more advanced musician isn't impressed with a less able musician's abilities, for someone who doesn't play music, the lesser musician is still able to make music, which is no small thing to those who don't. Similarly, a lesser magician is still a magician, compared to the average person. Even if that person cannot compare with the greats, or only does a few things halfway decently, that person is still ahead of the game. And yes, if you have a person who does whatever activity very poorly, it is possible that the person will never get to a level of competence, but that person might be doing it for their own satisfaction, in spite of also doing it for others. Can such a person be taught to reach beyond that level? Yes, but the desire to do so must come from the person, so there isn't much beyond that to force such an effort upon them... Cheers! |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-28 10:45, Ignore me... wrote:...that person might be doing it for their own satisfaction, in spite of One of the things which sets magic apart from other forms of communication is that the message, the elicitation of the feeling we call magic, does not exist for the performer at the time of the communication. There is no (true) self during the performance. There may be some satisfaction in DOING the actions though such also pales before what one might feel should one learn to juggle or create new works of a more tangible craft. At the end of a performance in magic, what is left is the -process of integrating the message received. When done for oneself, there is no message, no magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mike Walton Special user Chicago 984 Posts |
Yes I can and do teach magic to our new volunteers. Mind you, their backgrounds typically aren't magic, but that of outgoing performers and committed volunteers. We receive a large group of interesting and interested folk and screen the heck out of them. I require that they sign a Magician's Code to understand and commit to what magic creates and to also respect the art and its progression.
I think the technical skills are easier to teach, and test for half-way through training, as compared to skills in performance, character and desire to be socially out going. If you find such a character and then someone who is familar with putting in the time to learn an art, then generally it's a good match. But teaching magic requires breaking down the technique into digestable parts, showing ideal performance, and requiring performance at every meeting to increase their performance confidence. It also requires formal evaluation which includes dinging those that can't make the grade. Our hospital magicians are very talented and within months are working tables at hospital holiday events or with the Chicago Police at a national night out. They work their tails off and 40% of them don't make in through the initial 10 week training but those that do are brilliant. I'm proud of every one of them. |
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Patrick Differ Inner circle 1540 Posts |
Like you said, Mike. There are a lot of tough decisions to be made regarding weeding out the weaklings. It isn't that I don't have the guts, believe me. I dinged many weaklings in my corporate days. It's more that I'd rather not be the one to do it anymore.
Finding real students is a tough row to hoe, too. Most just want to impress their friends with their magic powers and don't have the slightest inkling of what an audience wants or expects. I have spent my entire life pondering this, and often still wonder if I actually do know. Anyone with the guts and ability to teach magic gets a bow from me. I would if I could, but I can't, so I won't.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy; The way into my parlour is up a winding stair, And I've a many curious things to show when you are there. Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain, For who goes up your winding stair -can ne'er come down again. |
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Parson Smith Inner circle 1937 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-09-24 18:10, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Oh Jonathon, I pray that no PETA people are perusing this site. The thought of a cattle prod and a pigeon makes me grin. Peace, Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty.
+++a posse ad esse+++ |
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