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snap
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Well, no matter how halloween came about, it is veiwed as a holiday for witches, warewolves, and other "magical" things. trick or treaters often dress up as witches, wizards, monsters, whatever, a lot of it is, to say the least, "anti-god." however it started, it is not thought of as a "christian" holiday. therefore, I refuse to take part in these "spooky" shows, or anything else to promote the concept of how halloween is used and thought of.
**--snap--**
rossmacrae
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"If it doesn't Honor God, it Dishonors Him."

Nonsense!

Every now and then, something can be value-neutral - it simply has nothing to do with worship or faith, it's just fun. And don't go into "well then it's idleness"... Sometimes it's simply not about that.

And any number of cultures have occasions to dress up, masque, ceremonialize, feast, whatever to "scare away the dark," - and they're not doing so to promote or worship what they're depicting. Look, for just one example, at Mexico's "Day of the Dead," with sugar skulls and skeleton imagery, picnic dinners in the cemetery, all done to honor those who have passed on, with serious devotion within the framework of their flavor of Christianity.
BroDavid
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While I don't agree with you Ross, I would not declare your statement to be Nonsense. And I am personally offended by your choice of terms in disagreeing with me.

But when it comes to faith, there is no neutral ground. You either believe or you do not. To try to make faith value-neutral, you must deny the absolute truth of the Christian faith.

And just because others do things, like worshipping and honoring the dead with celebrations and feasts, does not mean that it is right or honoring to God.

Is it right to honor the memories of those who have gone before us and given much for us? Of course it is. I honor the memory of my father and mother. But I don't put on scarey masks or picnic in the cemetery. Do I think that those who do so, are simply enjoying a harmless diversion? No I do not. Life is built on a slippery slope. And steps like those you mentioned do nothing but take us further down that slope and away from the Face of God.

One of the probelms that exists today is that too many want to have a broad personal flavor of Christianity, and ignore the narrow road.

You may agree with me, or you may not. Such is your choice, but your participation here implys that you are a Christian. If so, I request that you tone done attacks on the posts of others. If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude. But in either case I would enourage you to treat others as you would like to be treated. I am sure that if I had started out my message to you with a quote from your post, and the exclamation of Nonsense! you would not have happy about it.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
rossmacrae
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Quote:
when it comes to faith, there is no neutral ground. You either believe or you do not.


So one either believes ... or one does not ... no room for questions, no room for the Lord to light the way for you any differently than he lights it for anyone else, no room (oh, pal, just tell Paul this, just tell Peter this) for the slightest differences... no room to COME to a maturing of your faith, no room to grow BEYOND where your faith has led you hitherto (and be just as faithful at the beginning of your maturation as you are at the end) ... must be nice to be so pure, it would be nice if only it was Biblical.

Quote:
And just because others do things, like worshipping and honoring the dead with celebrations and feasts, does not mean that it is right or honoring to God. ... steps like those you mentioned do nothing but take us further down that slope and away from the Face of God.

Those rascally Catholics, just can't let 'em get away with a thing! Hard to see how they can call themselves Christians like ME, right? I'm sure their errors must greive God. By the way (careful, now, studying might lead you to opening your mind) the festival in question does not "worship" the dead.

Quote:
If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude. ... your participation here implys that you are a Christian. If so, I request that you tone done attacks on the posts of others.

I'm washed in the same blood, you are, pal ... and so are those who celebrate similar festivals with a whole heart and a strong connection to the principles of their stripe of the faith (oh, pardon me, there's no room for any different flavors of faith, sorry.)

I'm sorry you feel that vehement, strong disagreement is an "attack." If I wanted to issue a real attack, I'd write something like THIS: I'd point out how a person would have to be less than a thinking, responsible adult to swallow "my way or the highway" religion.

My memories of growing up Southern Baptist include one constant: Sunday school wasn't complete until somebody had told somebody (usually with a "poor deluded fool" shake of the head) "I'm sure, Brother [insert name here], that if you read that passage prayerfully you'd see [insert phraseology to indicate how woefully wrong you thing Brother so-and-so is in his interpretation]." Sometimes, the whole affair was simply shortened to "nonsense." Or something similar. Followed by the teacher's warning to settle down and consider the possibility that God might have something a little different to say to one person about his path than he had to say to another person about his path.

So I'm sorry to give as much offense as you seem to have taken.

You have shown me the truth: that God has only one simple and unambiguous way for everybody to follow OR ELSE, and those darned Catholics (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and on and on...anyone who doesn't agree with ME) are just completely off the track and are going straight to H-E-double-diddly-L.

And that's without even going into the whole Harry Potter issue.

[*Sigh*]
Chessmann
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Ross, I must confess it has been awhile since I have seen such a post like yours. Your arguments are not exactly on target.

For example, you wrote:

Quote:
"So one either believes ... or one does not ... no room for questions, no room for the Lord to light the way for you any differently than he lights it for anyone else, no room (oh, pal, just tell Paul this, just tell Peter this) for the slightest differences... no room to COME to a maturing of your faith, no room to grow BEYOND where your faith has led you hitherto (and be just as faithful at the beginning of your maturation as you are at the end) ... must be nice to be so pure, it would be nice if only it was Biblical."


I can hardly believe what I am reading. These are simply unbelievable assumptions, not even closely related to what BroDavid posted.

Quote:
"Those rascally Catholics, just can't let 'em get away with a thing!
Hard to see how they can call themselves Christians like ME, right? I'm sure their errors must greive God. By the way (careful, now, studying might lead you to opening your mind) the festival in question does not "worship" the dead."


Ross, this boggles the mind. You are making tremendously inaccurate assumptions about BroDavid with little to go on, making sure that you take gratuitous swipes at him in the process. The apostle Paul corrected error, Ross. So did Jesus. There is an important reason for this.

Quote:
"I'm sorry you feel that vehement, strong disagreement is an "attack." If I wanted to issue a real attack, I'd write something like THIS: I'd point out how a person would have to be less than a thinking, responsible adult to swallow "my way or the highway" religion."


Well, Ross, you certainly do know how to attack. That is clear. And you have made clear that you believe in the "my way or the highway" way of thinking. If BroDavid disagrees with you regarding what is honoring to God, the result is a "my way or the highway" response from you.

Quote:
"My memories of growing up Southern Baptist include one constant: Sunday school wasn't complete until somebody had told somebody (usually with a "poor deluded fool" shake of the head) "I'm sure, Brother [insert name here], that if you read that passage prayerfully you'd see [insert phraseology to indicate how woefully wrong you thing Brother so-and-so is in his interpretation]." Sometimes, the whole affair was simply shortened to "nonsense."


Ross, this is the exact approach you have taken with BroDavid.

Quote:
"Followed by the teacher's warning to settle down and consider the possibility that God might have something a little different to say to one person about his path than he had to say to another person about his path."


Within reason, of course. When Paul told the Galatians the false teachers there were to be accursed, surely he wasn't saying that the Lord just had something a little different to say to them.

Quote:
"You have shown me the truth: that God has only one simple and unambiguous way for everybody to follow OR ELSE, and those darned Catholics (Lutherans, Episcopalians, and on and on...anyone who doesn't agree with ME) are just completely off the track and are going straight to H-E-double-diddly-L."


Ross, this last paragraph is absolutely reprehensible. You have created an unbelievable straw man, named him BroDavid, and knocked it down with as much relish as you could muster.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Payne
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Ooohhhh dems fightin words! It looks as if the proverbial 95 theses are about to be nailed to the virtual cathedral door.

I'm glad that for me Halloween is simply a secular holiday (but then for me they all are) and I don't have to worry about all the metaphysical baggage others try to make me carry cause I like to dress up and watch scary movies every year on the 31st of October.

If you don't like Halloween then by all means don't celebrate it. Lock your doors and close your blinds and say a prayer for all those lost souls you think are sliding down that slippery slope because they dane to put on a scary mask or picnic in the cemetery.

Hey, if one never sinned one could never repent now could they?
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-10-27 19:28, Payne wrote:
Ooohhhh dems fightin words! It looks as if the proverbial 95 theses are about to be nailed to the virtual cathedral door.


LOL

Quote:
I'm glad that for me Halloween is simply a secular holiday (but then for me they all are) and I don't have to worry about all the metaphysical baggage others try to make me carry cause I like to dress up and watch scary movies every year on the 31st of October.


The last few years the movies they show are not as good as the ones they used to, IMO (Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing, et al...) I remember going to see "The House of Wax" in 3-D (at the local theatre) on Halloween.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
RevJohn
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I have enjoy this thread of arguements and discussions. I have enjoyed Ross' comments, and I always enjoy it when Euangelion chimes in... (and Paynes). BroDavid, I always like it when you chime in as well.

I haven't seen this honest of a conversation here for a while. Actually it have moved this area into an interesting realm. Don't get me wrong, I like effects, etc. But this is where it get really fun. (In the right corner we have...)

And I mean that. If we can't have disagreements with one another in the Church, well then almost all of Paul's letters wouldn't have been written. These were not small disagreements as well. Two sides, going at it...

Our Bishop, Rev. Mark Hanson, when we are about to talk about issues that pull us to different "sides," reminds us that as we discuss these things we do so as people who sit in the same waters of baptism. It is the same God that redeems us. It is the same Christ that rose from the Dead.

Speaking of 95 Thesis... My entire "Reformation Sunday" sermon is on Trick or Treating, and how Grace is always a treat, and the trick is remembering it.

Grace all the way my friends! Free Grace.

RevJohn
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-27 19:39, Chessmann wrote:

The last few years the movies they show are not as good as the ones they used to, IMO (Christopher Lee, Peter Cushing, et al...) I remember going to see "The House of Wax" in 3-D (at the local theatre) on Halloween.



I concur. Give ma an old Hitchcock or a Hammer film over any of these over produced "splatter" films any day.
Did you know the director of the original 3-d House of Wax only had one eye so he couldn't see 3-D.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Chessmann
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No! I didn't know that. Bummer for him.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
rossmacrae
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Thank you, RevJohn.

Quote:
Chessmann wrote:
I can hardly believe what I am reading. These are simply unbelievable assumptions, not even closely related to what BroDavid posted.

Looks pretty close, to me, to "you either believe or you do not." [Pause here for a chorus of "All or Nothing at All."]

Quote:
Chessmann wrote:
You are making tremendously inaccurate assumptions about BroDavid with little to go on, making sure that you take gratuitous swipes at him in the process. The apostle Paul corrected error, Ross. So did Jesus. There is an important reason for this.

Little to go on, other than what he wrote. "Is it right to honor the memories of those who have gone before us and given much for us? Of course it is. ... But I don't put on scarey masks or picnic in the cemetery. Do I think that those who do so, are simply enjoying a harmless diversion? No I do not." We were at that moment referring to the Mexican festival "Dia de los Muertos." Practicing, faithful Catholics picnic in cemeteries and make little 'shrines' to the memories of the departed. When the Pope calls it heresy, I'll condemn the practice as unfaithful, 'a slippery slope.' I don't feel quite as free to do so as BroDavid.

Quote:
BroDavid wrote:
too many want to have a broad personal flavor of Christianity, and ignore the narrow road.

That, Chessmann, is "my way or the highway." As in, "you're just not a Christian if you don't do like I approve of."

Quote:
Chessmann wrote:
Ross, this [referring to my vigorous and demonstrative disagreement-Ross] is the exact approach you have taken with BroDavid.

Exactly, I quite agree - 100%

Quote:
Chessmann wrote:
You have created an unbelievable straw man, named him BroDavid, and knocked it down with as much relish as you could muster.

BroDavid wrote:
your participation here implys that you are a Christian. ... If you are not a Christian, then I can understand your attitude.

Neither of you wants to know what I have to say about that. I promise you, you don't.

Galatians 2:11 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."
Chessmann
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Ross wrote:

Galatians 2:11 "When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong."

*****

It is one thing to oppose or disagree. It is quite another to do as you did.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
rossmacrae
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Then I offer apologies to all whom I may have offended, and an invitation to air opinions (agreeing, disagreeing, or entirely other) to those who may have found the discussion refreshingly frank.

Apparently, there are posters above who hold each opinion.
drkptrs1975
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I just do what I do. I don't care for Halloween, I know many Christians are agianst it, but I just don't care for it, and will not hammer on anyone who does. I do stuff 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.
RevJohn
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Since I really think I hear what Ross is saying, my guess is that if we were sitting around a table having Coffee, Tea or Water, we would be a little less agitated by the conversation.

Amazing what happens when one can't read tone. Of course I am just making assumptions about everyone's tone. But Ross reminds me of a friend (and a little of myself) so I am translating a different tone.

And of course, anyone who can get a Ned Flanders quote in an arguement can't be all that on a warpath.

Just my two cents.

But I always think it is interesting that we think Paul did anything less... this is the guy that before he "saw the light"(literally)was killing Christians. It seems that his personality had a tendency to get a little heated. So, who is to say that Peter and Paul didn't get into some huge argument. "Opposing him to his face," and "we disagreed" would take different Greek words to write. And my guess is that by the time it was written down, emotions had calmed a little more. Could you imagine what he wanted to write at the first meeting! Wooo Boy.

Revjohn
Leland Stone
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It is clear that BroDavid made a blanket statement expressing his disapproval of Catholic Mexico's celebration of Dia De Los Muertos. It is also clear that Ross made a relevant response to that statement.

What is not clear is whether Ross made a "personal attack" simply by expressing his viewpoint. His opening salvo of "Nonsense" was politically incorrect, and I'm uncertain what form of rhetoric is acceptable these days when succinctly describing the other party's views as poorly grounded in fact. But Ross's usage does seem to have been just that: A rhetorical tactic.

Not that Ross is without rhetorical blunder! His comparison of this cyber tete-a-tete with that which brewed between Peter & Paul is, as Chessman pointed out, an apples-to-oranges comparison. Or gnats-to-camels. In other words, there is no comparing a dispute between apostles over foundational doctrine, to a difference of conscience between believers regarding the peripheral application of doctrine.

It seems to me that BroDavid is rightly concerned about dishonouring God, but may be a bit zealous in what constitutes dishonour -- at least, with regard to the actions of others. Since Ross has apologized for any offense he's caused, I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested by Revjohn.

As for visiting a cemetery to honour the dead, what a capital idea! Is there any other place in which one would have found an Empty Tomb?

Leland
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-28 13:15, Leland Stone wrote:

As for visiting a cemetery to honour the dead, what a capital idea!



Why else would we have cemetaries but to honour the dead? All cultures have some sort of ancestor recognition (dare I say worship?).
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
GlenD
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I thought it was to bury them?
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
RevJohn
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Off the subject, but I just had an elder gentleman tell me:

"In Ireland, a way to ask a woman to marry you is say, 'Would you like to be buried with my people?'"

Found it an interesting way to ask.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-28 15:32, GlenD wrote:
I thought it was to bury them?


We also bury trash but we rarely make monuments and memorials for it.
If revering the dead wasn't important to our culture we'd simply make Soylent Green out of them.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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