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Chessmann
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Quote:
Since Ross has apologized for any offense he's caused, I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested by Revjohn.


Amen, as it is an interesting topic!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-28 13:15, Leland Stone wrote:

I hope the conversation may continue in the vein and spirit suggested



Yes since we are talking about spirits
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
tomrav
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Back to the Halloween issue, I'm in the UK and recently, I was talking to an American who's over at our Church for a year, we were talking about Halloween and she was saying that Christians don't really mak such a big deal out of it, they just dress up and go trick or treating, whereas in the UK, hardly any Christians would go out trick or treating, let alone do a Halloween show.

Now, I think I'm on the side of quite a few Americains in that Halloween is just another way people have a fun day. I don't see how dressing up as monsters or the Pied Piper is any more dishonouring to God than doing a card trick or playing a game of tennis.

Going back to BroDavid's first point that if something isn't honouring God, it is therefore Dishonouring God, I personally don't agree because I don't see how a game of tennis (which is just one example out of many) honours God or dishonours God.

BTW, I've never celebrated Halloween because my family would't approve but my American cousins do, there seems to be different attitudes.
RevJohn
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One comment that just spurred a thought, and it might have been talked about but it has to do with, "Celebrating..."

What does it take to consider one "celebrating" a particular holiday. We all know those in the states that celebrate Christmas, but also would not fall into the category of celebrating Christ's birth. Just a fact.

So can one go Trick or Treating and not celebrate what some think Halloween stands for?

Thoughts..
acmp
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Wow there's some heavy stuff in this thread.

As for the 31st, I won't be doing anything. My church has organised an 'alternative evening' for the younger children.

When I was a child I'd go trick or treating. I will still get some treats just in case someone knocks on my door though.

I don't celebrate halloween, I don't do ramadan either, they just aren't Christian.

If I was asked to perform at a halloween party I'd decline, if it was a ramadan celebration I'd decline that too, they're just not my thing.

I have a Christmas party comming up, that should be fun.
acmp<><

"Well if I had one wish in this god forsaken world, kids
It'd be that your mistakes would be your own"
acmp
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Wow there's some heavy stuff in this thread.

As for the 31st, I won't be doing anything. My church has organised an 'alternative evening' for the younger children.

When I was a child I'd go trick or treating. I will still get some treats just in case someone knocks on my door though.

I don't celebrate halloween, I don't do ramadan either, they just aren't Christian.

If I was asked to perform at a halloween party I'd decline, if it was a ramadan celebration I'd decline that too, they're just not my thing.

I have a Christmas party comming up, that should be fun.
acmp<><

"Well if I had one wish in this god forsaken world, kids
It'd be that your mistakes would be your own"
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-10-29 13:42, tomrav wrote:
Going back to BroDavid's first point that if something isn't honouring God, it is therefore Dishonouring God I personally don't agree....


Christ himself said, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters." (Luke 11:23) For a christian, we should try to honor God in everything we do.

Quote:
....because I don't see how a game of tennis (which is just one example out of many) honours God or dishonours God.


The point, I believe, is that as a Christian, is one doing whatever you do to the glory of God - be it what you celebrate(a good point there made by RevJohn), or a tennis game, or whatever. The scriptures say to do whatever you do to the glory of God. So while it may sound silly at first blush, a tennis game *can* honor God if the participant(s) have the mindset of using their skills with thanksgiving to the Lord for giving them the skill to play and with the hope that their play will reflect christian character and behavior to those watching.

I play soccer in a league. It puts me in contact with people I may only see once. Can God use the soccer game to bring the oppportunity to share with someone? Of course!

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." I Cor 10:31-33
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
tomrav
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Fair point chessman.
Gede Nibo
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Payne is right...he is always right...

youre real brave comin' down here alone amongst the zealots...I commend you...

and I respect all paths to the Most High...
Clifford the Red
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I think it is a specious assertion that "if you do not honor, you dishonor." and then to attempt to define what "honors" is treading on dangerous waters.

There are many examples of scripture where an act is both honorable and dishonorable based on intent. And many examples where Jesus REBUKED those who attempted to judge a person's intent.

Intent is a personal thing between you and God. Man looks on the outside but only God looks on the heart.

I find all of the attempts to place judgement on people participating in Halloween to be a bit appalling and indicative more of a faulty education on the subject rather than a Biblical grounding. For one, the deeper psychological meanings in Halloween celebrations are evocative of understanding true human nature. One may wear a mask on Halloween and come to understand the masks that are worn everywhere, every day, including church, especially by one's self. A deeper understanding may help one become more honest and true and shed hypocrisy in their everyday character. "To thine own self be true..." I would consider a person who can put on a mask on Halloween to remind them to shed masks of dishonesty in their everyday life to be a valuable thing.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
rossmacrae
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Intent is a personal thing between you and God. Man looks on the outside but only God looks on the heart.

Precisely - while I support everyone else's right to air their opinions about right relations with God (certainly I have felt free to air mine), I stop short when the conversation gets to "how can you call yourself a Christian if...[fill in the blank.]"

I was taught a PERSONAL relationship with God, and I have one ... God has demonstrated to me again and again that we are "tight" (otherwise how could he have doled out so much grace to me so many times?) ... but almost as soon as I did have a personal relationship with God, all sorts of people came out of the woodwork trying to tell me exactly how our relationship "had to" be.

And I upset people then and now, because that relationship is as intimate as a relationship can be, and I am no more interested in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship to God than I am in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship with my wife.
Chessmann
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This thread has had a lot of discussion around the periphery.

We have discussed Halloween, but not (many? any?) specific reasons for/against Halloween.

Ross wrote:

"Precisely - while I support everyone else's right to air their opinions about right relations with God (certainly I have felt free to air mine), I stop short when the conversation gets to "how can you call yourself a Christian if...[fill in the blank.]"

Correct me if I missed it, but we have read that people do/don't participate in Halloween, and that participating in Halloween does/does not dishonour God, but I do not think I have seen specific very specific reasons why.

And since question Ross poses above ("How can you call yourself....") can be used from either perspective in this discussion, it will be an easy thing to get nowhere fast if we don't get real specific.

If we want to get anywhere, we must list reasons while at the same time submitting to scripture. However, I don't think anything ever really gets settled on a web board, so..... ;^)

I do believe that if you are not honoring God, you are dishonoring Him.

Education in the scriptures is the key here - BOTH FOR THOSE WHO WOULD ENGAGE IN WHATEVER ACTION IT IS THAT IS IN QUESTION, AS WELL AS FOR THE PERSON WHO WOULD CORRECT SOMEONE ELSE.

One thing that causes our differences is our past and personal experience with, in this case, Halloween. But we there are many issues like this, such as alcohol, prayer in schools, etc, etc....

In the last chapter of Acts, Paul reasoned from the scriptures with many people about Christ. "And some believed, and some did not believe." But again, I don't think a web board discussion will solve much. Usually, things end up just going in a circle.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-10-29 23:45, rossmacrae wrote:
....I am no more interested in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship to God than I am in receiving comments and criticism on my relationship with my wife.


Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-10-30 01:38, Chessmann wrote:

We have discussed Halloween, but not (many? any?) specific reasons for/against Halloween.

Correct me if I missed it, but we have read that people do/don't participate in Halloween, and that participating in Halloween does/does not dishonour God, but I do not think I have seen specific very specific reasons why.



The entire last paragraph of my previous post was devoted to a specific example. Any celebration, Christian or not, is a bit pointless unless you take time to place meaning on it. With a tiny bit of effort, profound meaning can become a part of the tradition. Even Christmas contains profound meanings in the many traditions of the season that are missed.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-29 19:10, Gede Nibo wrote:

Payne is right...he is always right...



This is going on my promotional material
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
rossmacrae
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Quote:
Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.

But it's MY relationship, not theirs.

We may be instructed to share the Good News with others, but I don't recall being instructed to try to mold every believer into exactly my shape.

I have had enough chapter-and-verse thrown at me because I'm not exactly what someone else thinks I should be, and there is enough scripture that someone can find a passage (or distort one) to support just about anything. Lest anyone think I am claiming to be "my own always-right measuring stick," I can point to any number of my own errors and sins - but the Lord and I deal with them. When I signed on for "a closer walk with Thee," I didn't sign on for an equally close walk with thee and thee and thee and her and the guy over in the corner.

Wanna get back to Halloween? Easily done! Easily done, and I will use the issue to put to rest, once and for all, that "you believe or you don't, it honors God or dishonors Him" nonsense.

It's All Hallow's Eve (and by the way, you can't have All Hallows Eve unless you have an All Saints Day to follow.) And there's a man new in the faith, full of enthusiasm and with a heartfelt desire to really share the Good News that has changed his life. And he gives out tracts instead of candy to trick-or-treaters. I am convinced that that man is honoring God, putting his faith into action with works - surely he feels a renewal and a deepening of the meaning of God in his life. And I am equally convinced that the trick-or-treaters will go away feeling cheated (any word you care to put to the frustration of their expectations) and the next day, at school, at least some people will be talking about that "crazy old guy who gave out Jesus pamphlets instead of candy." One man's faith strengthened, twenty kids figuring that Jesus takes your wits away along with your sins. In their experience, God was dishonored ... their opinion of the faith was certainly lower after the experience than it was before (and by the way, do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY.

Likewise those idiotic "Halloween Horror Houses" full of depictions of the horrors of abortion, drugs, voting Democratic, girls wearing immodest clothes, and treating your homosexual neighbor like any other fellow taxpaying citizen. Do they honor God, or does the nationwide scorn of such antics just place Christians more firmly in the loony bin, in the view of the millions who see and laugh at them.

Alternative parties on the same night, where the kids can dress up like Old Testament figures in the church basement, so they won't go out and dress up like the devil, or a pokemon, or Spongebob, or that evil Princess Leia? Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth, and not what he thinks you want to hear, whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him?

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.
Chessmann
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OK, Ross.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
snap
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While you are right, ross, and many make way too much of a fuss about some things (like trick or treating), and we DEFINATELY shouldn't be judgemental of people who do go trick or treating, I find something wrong with those who go out dressed as witches, goblins, and devils. although I will not say that those who dress as these things are condemned doomed to hell, or whatever else, I will not even say that their horrible people, many of them simply don't know any better.

as christians, we are called to a higher standard of living. this is one of those touchy subjects, that may be enterpreted different ways, depending on how you look at it. personally, I'm not going to go out trick or treating when there's a chance I could be honoring god instead, sharing the gospel, or simply talking with someone and showing them how a christian acts and functions. but I don't think that it's necessarily wrong for a christian to go trick or treating. but, my point is, our job is to bring people to christ. jesus said, "i am the way, the truth, and the life, no one gets to the father, but through me." this means that he is the ONLY way, if someone doesn't know him, they aint goin' anywhere but down. we need to set an example for those who don't know him yet, to, hopefully, bring people to him. anything that has even a sliver of a chance of taking some one from the devil and giving him to christ, I say it's worth doing. the bible says that the angels rejoice when a single person comes to christ. shouldn't we try to be the one to bring that person into heaven?
**--snap--**
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-30 13:48, snap wrote:

While you are right, ross, and many make way too much of a fuss about some things (like trick or treating), and we DEFINATELY shouldn't be judgemental of people who do go trick or treating, I find something wrong with those who go out dressed as witches, goblins, and devils. although I will not say that those who dress as these things are condemned doomed to hell, or whatever else, I will not even say that their horrible people, many of them simply don't know any better.



Many say ther same of those who waste two or three hours every Sunday going to hear old songs and someone reading aloud passages from an archaic text.
Many of them simply don't know any better? Yeah that attitude is going to bring many what you consider "lost souls" into the fold.
I think there's a passage in that big old book you read the says something like "judge not lest thee be judged.

Of every one here I really have to take sides with Ross as he really seems to have a handle on the "leading through actions" thing. Not that I'm any closer to converting or anything.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Chessmann
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[/quote]

I think there's a passage in that big old book you read the says something like "judge not lest thee be judged.

[/quote]

And like many people, you have taken that quote out of its context.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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