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Chessmann
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More later ;^)

Sorry - got started but couldn't finish.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Gede Nibo
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We all wear masks, many masks everday...some put on a special mask on that Sunday mornin', and promptly remove it as soon as they leave the building...

the bottom line is, without a doubt that if you debase Halloween as Pagan then you MUST also do the same for even your most sacred holidays...just face it, its truth...

And I hope all of you that think its sinful celebrate halloween, ALSO refuse to celebrate your Saviors supposed Birthday by purchasing countless material goods for you temporary satisfaction...I think your Savior wouldnt like such gluttonous, greedy, desire ridden actions to be acted out on his Birthday...

'sides, if you listen to your Bible so well, then get out of Magic, for it says over again, that we are bad people...even though it was the three Mage that did find your Baby Savior...

I hope someone reads this before they delete me as usual...
Tim Ellis
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Quote:
On 2005-10-30 16:24, Gede Nibo wrote:
'sides, if you listen to your Bible so well, then get out of Magic, for it says over again, that we are bad people...even though it was the three Mage that did find your Baby Savior...



A lot of people, even Christians, misunderstand the meanings of translated words like 'Magic' and 'Magician'. That's where a good concordance can be of assistance when reading the Bible.


Regarding the original thread, we just staged our own 'Halloween Spooktacular' on October 29 at the same hall we go to Church in on Sundays. It's just a council hall rented out for all sorts of purposes including Church, yet one person rang up our ticketing agency and told them off for having such an event in a "Church building" (This hall also has weekly yoga sessions among other things *g*). As we discovered later, the person who called didn't even go to the Church.

BTW: Our pastor is also a magician, Adrian Kebbe (aka Harry Houdidn't) and he had no objections to our event whatsoever.

You can read the full report of our event on our blog (see the link in my signature) but, just to make our viewpoint clear to our guests, we printed the following in our Spooktacular programme:

Some say Halloween began as a tradition of the ancient Celts. It was the last day of summer and a day, they believed, that the spirits of those who had died that year would walk the earth looking for bodies to possess. Does that mean that ghosts really exist?

We know the dead do not return, as it says in the Bible:
“Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.” Hebrews 9:27

Let’s take it a little further… does the devil really exist?
C.S. Lewis wrote “The greatest trick the devil pulled was convincing the world that he didn’t exist.” He’s done this by portraying himself in so many different ways that we assume him to be just another creation of someone’s vivid imagination, like Frankenstein, Dracula or even Freddy Kruger. The only difference is imaginary creatures might scare you, but they can’t hurt you.
Most people aren’t scared of the devil, yet the Bible says:
“Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaming lion
looking for someone to devour.” 1 Peter 5:8

Enjoy your Halloween responsibly.
snap
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Right on.
**--snap--**
Gede Nibo
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The whole book has been misinterpreted beyond belief...

but I never read anything in there that says its sinful for young lads to come to my door asking for candy, dressed in funny costumes...

Gods, Devils..in the mind...

Tim, thanks for your kind post, I felt no anger there, and this is swell...

I'm outta here lest I be exorcised...
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-10-30 18:44, Gede Nibo wrote:
The whole book has been misinterpreted beyond belief...


When there are differences of opinion, particularly over the text of scripture, careful exegesis of the text is necessary. Too many times a scripture verse will be taken from its context and used to validate something it doesn't actually address.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Turk
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Boy!! This thread gives new meaning to the phrase "Holier than thou". (And not to be confused with the phrase "Holier than Thou".)

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
Chessmann
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True enough (and don't we know both sides of this coin feel this way!).
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chessmann
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On 2005-10-30 10:01, rossmacrae wrote:
Quote:
Perhaps look on those comments and criticism as an opportunity to share with them, and that what you share may be a perspective that they have never thought of before.

But it's MY relationship, not theirs.

We may be instructed to share the Good News with others, but I don't recall being instructed to try to mold every believer into exactly my shape.

I have had enough chapter-and-verse thrown at me because I'm not exactly what someone else thinks I should be, and there is enough scripture that someone can find a passage (or distort one) to support just about anything. Lest anyone think I am claiming to be "my own always-right measuring stick," I can point to any number of my own errors and sins - but the Lord and I deal with them. When I signed on for "a closer walk with Thee," I didn't sign on for an equally close walk with thee and thee and thee and her and the guy over in the corner.

Wanna get back to Halloween? Easily done! Easily done, and I will use the issue to put to rest, once and for all, that "you believe or you don't, it honors God or dishonors Him" nonsense.

It's All Hallow's Eve (and by the way, you can't have All Hallows Eve unless you have an All Saints Day to follow.) And there's a man new in the faith, full of enthusiasm and with a heartfelt desire to really share the Good News that has changed his life. And he gives out tracts instead of candy to trick-or-treaters. I am convinced that that man is honoring God, putting his faith into action with works - surely he feels a renewal and a deepening of the meaning of God in his life. And I am equally convinced that the trick-or-treaters will go away feeling cheated (any word you care to put to the frustration of their expectations) and the next day, at school, at least some people will be talking about that "crazy old guy who gave out Jesus pamphlets instead of candy." One man's faith strengthened, twenty kids figuring that Jesus takes your wits away along with your sins. In their experience, God was dishonored ... their opinion of the faith was certainly lower after the experience than it was before (and by the way, do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY.

Likewise those idiotic "Halloween Horror Houses" full of depictions of the horrors of abortion, drugs, voting Democratic, girls wearing immodest clothes, and treating your homosexual neighbor like any other fellow taxpaying citizen. Do they honor God, or does the nationwide scorn of such antics just place Christians more firmly in the loony bin, in the view of the millions who see and laugh at them.

Alternative parties on the same night, where the kids can dress up like Old Testament figures in the church basement, so they won't go out and dress up like the devil, or a pokemon, or Spongebob, or that evil Princess Leia? Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth, and not what he thinks you want to hear, whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him?

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.


Ross, you are all over the map - strawman, choosing the very worst examples of the opposing point of view and arguing against them, guilt by association.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Clifford the Red
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[quote]On 2005-10-30 20:25, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
Too many times a scripture verse will be taken from its context and used to validate something it doesn't actually address.


And too many times a scripture will be ignored because it is counter to one's position.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
rossmacrae
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Quote:
Ross, you are all over the map - strawman, choosing the very worst examples of the opposing point of view and arguing against them, guilt by association.

Then don't give me such a wide map to be all over - the very worst examples of the opposing point of view are still very real examples, and they make the faith look foolish and trivial.

And by the way, when I was young in the faith, I was "guilty" of passing out tracts at the most inappropriate times, and causing far more embarrassment and annoyance than anything else. I was acting from the heart, but I'd have done much better (and been far more effective) to act a little more from the head.
Chessmann
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Yes, we have all, indeed, "had our days". Definitely.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Donnie W
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quote "But it's MY relationship, not theirs."
-------------------------------------------------
Very true, Our personal relationship with Christ has to be based on His Word not on what we feel or what others think.


--------------------------------------------------
quote "do you SERIOUSLY think anyone read one of those tracts, slapped his head, shouted 'I've been such a fool!' and came to church the next day? No, SERIOUSLY."
--------------------------------------------------
YES Give candy with the tract no disappointed kids. We don't know the eternal impact of what we do. Maybe they will slap their head and see stars, I mean the Light. More likely that seed planted will grow along with other seeds planted by God.


----------------
"Alternative parties on the same night, ....... Ask a kid you think will tell you the truth,........ , whether he liked being hauled to such an event - do you really think he's going to say 'I feel so much closer to Jesus now,' or is he much more likely to say 'My parents are so blinking lame.'??? Does it honor God or dishonor him? "
----------------------
Our Children's church has about 25 kids, we had 310 kids and about 200 adults at our alternative event last night. They must not think it is too lame. The plan of Salvation was presented and God's love shown. I hope God was honoured 73 Donnie

Getting in a fuss about Halloween just trivializes the issue of good and evil. The Bible says no one living has seen God face to face, and I suppose no one has seen Satan that way either, but those of us who have seen Satan a little closer - in war, in places where unspeakable horrors have taken place, in the eyes of children and men and women who have lived through things most of us can't imagine ... those of us who have seen Satan that close know that real evil is way WAY more serious stuff than Halloween.
Donnie W
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Forgive my typeing forgot to proofread my post. Last paragragh should be deleted
73 Donnie
RevJohn
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I just have to ask, since it isn't a phrase I hear a lot.

What do you mean by "Strawman"? It sounds like a nice way to throw out an insult... but I don't know. SO I am asking.

RevJohn
Chessmann
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On 2005-10-31 10:54, RevJohn wrote:
I just have to ask, since it isn't a phrase I hear a lot.

What do you mean by "Strawman"? It sounds like a nice way to throw out an insult... but I don't know. SO I am asking.

RevJohn


It is not an insult, nor is it something that you "call" somebody. I'll PM you.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
GlenD
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Oh no, if I don't celebrate Halloween then I MUST not celebrate Christmas or Easter either! Regardless of whether or not my family engages in gluttonous materialism along with the ackowledgement and celebration of the saviors birth.
Why, because someone says so!? Some bizarre demand is required as a result of not celebrating a ghoulish or, as some "perceive" it, satanic holiday? Even if I or others are wrong and uninforned about the origin of this Halloween holiday. I can still just decide to not celebrate or participate in it. It does not mean I have to cease from participating in other Holidays. What kind fo nonsense is that ? And even if the 25th of December is not the exact day, blah blah blah... or hey, that calendar was different than our calendar now and uh your celebrating something that did'nt even happen on the day you celebrate it on!!! Oh my gosh, I guess the whole plan of salvation, new and old testaments are all of no value anymore. A major coup and victory for all the non-believers and hopeful faith stealers out there!

Well, guess what, it just is'nt that simple and the gates of hell and all that work to carry out the enemies plans will never prevail. The victory was won before the enemy even realized what happened.

Even if the Christmas holiday were to vanish or be wiped off the calendars, that would not change anything. So what's with the constant attempt to convince believers that one of their most sacred of holidays is somehow flawed or ill-conceived or whatever? I don't get it?

I just had to chime in.

By the way, I am a very easy going person, as anyone who knows me can attest. I enjoy the horror flicks and spooky kooky stuff and find Halloween a fun holiday.
On a surfacy level, as far as dressing up and just having fun with it. But I don't make a big deal out of it to some of my Christian brothers who feel differently or whatever. And I don't want to make my non-believeing friends feel judged or anything by any kind of pretentions that I might have.

I am actually quite amazed that this topic hasnt been locked yet!

GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
Neale - Bacon
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If it's not too late. I'd like to get back to the original question - My halloween show is called The Happy Halloween Spooktacular Safety Show and emphasises the fun aspects like costumes and candy, and shows kids how to have a safe halloween.

The closest I get to scary is a story about a Haunted House where I have a skelton the keeps appearing and vanishing.
Neale Bacon

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Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-10-31 12:15, GlenD wrote:

I am actually quite amazed that this topic hasnt been locked yet!



I think it's because we have kept this on a pretty adult level so far with a bare minimum of name calling and finger pointing.
I congratulate everyone on being somewhat civil to one another on this topic. I really think we're pretty much on the same page on this one, different books but the same page number more or less.
I think Halloween has become the second most celebrated holiday in this country, second only to Xmas because there is no emotional baggage associated with it. No long traditions of having to get together with family or giving gifts or having to cook large and complex meals. It's a pretty free form totally secular holiday and therefor you're allowed to celebrate it anyway you like. It can be all adult or all kids or any combination in between. Lavish and extravagant or not celebrated at all. The perfect Rorschach Holiday. No expectations and you get out of what you put into it.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Chessmann
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I think Halloween has become the second most celebrated holiday in this country, second only to Xmas because there is no emotional baggage associated with it. No long traditions of having to get together with family or giving gifts or having to cook large and complex meals. It's a pretty free form totally secular holiday and therefor you're allowed to celebrate it anyway you like. It can be all adult or all kids or any combination in between. Lavish and extravagant or not celebrated at all. The perfect Rorschach Holiday. No expectations and you get out of what you put into it.


Very interesting observation. I had never thought about the why's and wherefore's from that particular perspective. Nor did I know that Halloween was the second-most celebrated holiday.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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