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Paul Sherman
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Quote:
On 2005-10-01 19:32, mike paris wrote:
Paul,After reading some of the info you put up in regards quackery,you certainly got me thinking, I would still keep an open mind but with a lot more reservations,now i,m more wary, thanks, mike


There's absolutely nothing wrong with keeping an open mind, in fact, it's a fundamental part of science.

The question, of course, is: to what should one's mind be open?

The problem with most of these phenomena is not that we don't understand how they work, but that there's no evidence that they work at all. Before we begin speculating about the benefits of a "non-traditional" treatment as compared to traditional "western" medicine, we should require the proponents of these non-traditional techniques to show that they have some benefit greater than a placebo effect.

I'm more than willing to consider non-traditional alternatives to Western medicine. I'm even willing to consider them without understanding the exact mechanisms through which they work. My only demand--and I think it's a reasonable one--is that those who peddle these alternatives prove that they do SOMETHING. Most can't and I have no qualms about keeping my mind closed to their questionable practices.

Paul
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase



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Jerrine
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Paul I have to disagree with you. Chiropractic is so much more than massage therapy and is far less dangerous than western medical treatment. Chiropractic does not increase the chance of stroke. You don't die from a D.C. giving you the wrong medicine, many many many many many cases of that happening from M.D.'s.
I, over a period of 6 years, personally witnessed 1000's of patients receiving spinal adjustments without a single complication or complaint. I've seen pain relieved, extended range of motion, positive mental benefits, increased body function, generally more healthy people leaving than when they first came in. Part of my job was to educate patients as to what Chiropractic can and can not do, and put them on the road to a healthy life.
The benefits of Chiropractic care have been proven. The drug of the week is not the answer. No one ever got sick because they were running low on antibiotics. Eat real food, drink plenty of pure water, exercise daily and watch yourself turn into a happy fellow. Your body knows more than you do.
mike paris
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I remember seeing a program on REALITY TV of a women who had tried conventional treatments with no success, an alternative treatment was suggested,BEE STINGS, and it seemed to work, maybe a lot of old wives treatments have not been tested with the scientists,thats why keeping an open mind can benefit,i just think that if the doctors cannot do anything for you, and you are in a lot of pain ,then you will look elsewhere.
Paul Sherman
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Quote:
On 2005-10-02 05:26, Jerrine wrote:
Chiropractic does not increase the chance of stroke.

I disagree with you, mainly because my father performed an autopsy and authored a case study of a perfectly healthy young man who died suddenly following a chiropractic adjustment of his neck. The finding in this autopsy, and in numerous other similar case studies, is that chiropractic adjustment of the neck can tear the vertebral arteries, causing stroke. The risk of this happening may be small, but when a procedure is unnecessary, even small risks are inexcusable.

No one has to take my word for it though. I would urge anyone considering the procedure to look at the evidence and weigh the risks/benefits of the procedure for themselves. Of course they should also talk with their doctor. In making the risk/benefit analysis though, they should weigh the real risks of western medicine against the REAL benefits offered by western medicine.

What separates western medicine from "alternative" medicine, as I mentioned above, is that its efficacy has been scientifically established. A small (or even substantial) risk posed by western medical techniques may well be worth taking if the upside is high enough. Organ transplant surgery, for example, is enormously risky, but the benefits are inestimable to the patient who gets to keep living.

However, in the case of "alternative" or "eastern" practices, a small (or even substantial) risk is being weighed against an upside that is either unsubstantiated or nonexistant. That changes the calculus significantly and in most cases, even where the risk is very small, should counsel against these alternative treatments. This risk/benefit analysis also ignores the risk to individuals who forego traditional treatment in favor of pseudo-scientific alternatives. The increased risk from that lost time is very real and, if the underlying condition is serious enough, can mean the difference between life and death.

For those who are interested, a number or articles and editorials on the subject of chiropractice manipulation and stroke can be found here: http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/5/1054

A google search will also turn up responses, both from critics and supporters of chiropractic.

Paul
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase



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Jerrine
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If Chiropractic increased the chance of stroke people would be stroking all over the place, like a swim team at the Olympics, and the fact is they are not. There are tests performed by competent D.C.'s before even touching a patient. Like I said before, you got your bad eggs in every profession.

As far as western medicine having small risks, take a look at the number of people who meet their death each year by mistakes in hospitals.

The Medical associations have given Chiropractic care "the business" since it's conception. Chiropractors cut into their turf and that's that. Saying that something is scientific sounds good and all but means little when it comes to reality. Science is constantly changing due to new discoveries, that is, finding out what scientists of one age thought was right is wrong. At the age of 14 I was given a series of smallpox vaccinations to cure an affliction. Several years later I had the same problem and was told that since so many people had died the year before from the same vaccination they were no longer to be given. I felt sooooo good about that information I'll tell you.

My D.C. diagnoses just like a M.D. and works hand in hand with M.D.'s. Chiropractic is not a cure all. It's main benefit is as a preventative to illness. M.D.'s have little to offer before your health goes south. It's a reactionary type of care. Chiropractic care helps the body remain strong and fight disease. It's better to remain healthy than to seek medicines for relief.

You are safer in the hands of a trained D.C. than you are behind the wheel of a car, and there is a good reason, health.
Paul Sherman
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Well, it's easy to knock down the straw-man that people are dying of chiropractic-induced strokes left and right. Lucky for me, that isn't what I claimed. It is possible, however, that chiropractic might increase the risk of stroke AND the increase would be small enough that people aren't stroking "like a swim team at the Olympics." Whether you want to believe it or not, there is sound scientific evidence that chiropractic adjustment of the neck can tear the vertebral arteries, causing stroke. That doesn't mean it happens every time someone's neck is adjusted, or even a large percentage of the time, but it DOES happen and it's a risk that needs to be weighed against the potential benefits (if any exist).

Secondly, I never said that western medicine had small risks. The risks of traditional medicine can run from very small to very large. What I said was that, in exchange for those risks, traditional medicine gives patients scientifically measurable benefits.

As for science "constantly changing due to new discoveries", rather than being a weakness, this is science's greatest strength. Old hypotheses are discarded as new evidence is discovered about the natural world. As a result, the "constant change" in science is a constant improvement.

Because of this constant improvement, the risks of western medicine decrease over time. New smallpox vaccines will cause fewer deaths than old smallpox vaccines. However, it's important to note that both of them create a lower risk of death than untreated smallpox. Without the scientific method and western medicine, we wouldn't have had either vaccine.

The argument that the negative press on chiropractors comes from greedy doctors trying to insulate themselves from competition is just silly. This same sort of argument was used by snake-oil salesman Kevin Trudeau in the title of his recent book "Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About". It's a particularly bizarre conspiracy theory that doctors 1) don't have any interest in preventative medicine and 2) are out to "get" anyone who does. I simply don't know how to respond to it because, if you truly believe that, there's probably nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I would point out that such a theory requires the complicity of hundreds of thousands of M.D.'s across the globe, and I think it's unfair to assume that all those M.D.'s would purposefully deny their patients information on beneficial treatments just because it would cut into their financial "turf".

At any rate, even if it were true that doctors had it out for chiropractors (and were willing to risk their patients lives to do it), that shouldn't have any impact on chiropractors' ability to demonstrate, via the scientific method, that their practices work. Luckily for everyone, the scientific method has a unique ability to ferret out the truths of the natural world without regard to whether or not those truths shake up "the establishment." Unfortunately for the chiropractic industry, they've been unable to demonstrate that adjustment of the spine has any effect on any part of the body other than...the spine.

If they do manage to prove that adjustment of the spine can cure ailments in, say, the stomach, I know at least one person willing to pay them a million dollars for a demonstration: http://www.randi.org. His views on chiropractic can be found here: http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/chiropractic.html
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase



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Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2005-10-01 19:17, mike paris wrote:
Your brain without doubt is the best cure for lots of your ills, you cut yourself badly, your body automatically takes over to repair itself,you don,t need to think about it, it just does it,there are a lot of alternative treatments out there,that a lot of people say they work,not for everyone ,but you try anything within reason that's been recommended and maybe it will work for you,maybe if you have severe headaches and someone said go chew some bark of a willow tree ,it works for a lot of people,it may work for you,for the benefit of those who do not know,thats where they get aspirin from, my opinion ,always keep an open mind.


Don't try this with a spurting, arterial bleeding wound, folks!

;)

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Lee Darrow
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Blunt-Trauma Carotid Artery Injury: Mild Symptoms May Disguise Serious Trouble

Sandra Carr, MD; Bryan Troop, MD; Joseph Hurley, MD; Richard Pennell, MD

THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 24 - NO. 2 - FEBRUARY 96

In Brief: Injury to the carotid artery can occur in athletes by direct blow to the neck or by hyperextension of the neck. After such injury, symptoms may be mild or transient. Catastrophic complications such as stroke can occur if the injury is not recognized and treated. Neurologic changes such as transient weakness or transient unilateral blurred vision that occur after a hyperextension injury or a direct blow to the neck may indicate a carotid artery injury. A careful neurologic examination can help identify most carotid artery injuries, but because the symptoms of injury may not appear immediately, follow-up may be necessary. Treatment may consist of anticoagulation therapy or operative repair.

Carotid artery injuries are often associated with major morbidity and mortality, such as stroke or permanent neurologic deficit (1). Furthermore, diagnosis is frequently delayed because of a patient's severe multisystem injury, a physician's failure to suspect an injury caused by minor trauma, or a delay in symptom manifestation (1-3). Fortunately, blunt traumatic carotid injury--the type typical in sports--accounts for only 3% to 15% of all recognized injuries to the carotid artery (2,4,5). The low incidence, however, is part of what makes alertness to the condition important.

Early diagnosis and appropriate treatment of blunt carotid injuries are crucial because they may prevent permanent neurologic deficits (5). Early recognition requires astuteness, because many such injuries result from minor trauma that produces no other injuries (3-5). In addition, clinical manifestations of carotid trauma are often delayed for hours or days after the injury: Only 10% of patients with such injuries have early focal neurologic symptoms that may resemble those produced by closed head injuries (4).

Blunt carotid injury may result from a direct blow, cervical rotation, chiropractic cervical manipulation, or hyperextension, such as during a tennis serve, endoscopy, or endotracheal intubation (3,5,6)

The possible consequences of blunt trauma to the carotid artery include intraluminal stenosis, immediate total occlusion, carotid dissection, chronic pseudoaneurysm, carotid-cavernous fistula formation, and acute hemorrhage (4). Pseudoaneurysms can occur when the media and adventitia are disrupted in addition to the intima (4,5). Carotid-cavernous fistulas might occur with an injury to the cavernous portion of the carotid artery that results in an abnormal communication between the high-pressure arterial system and the low-pressure venous system (4).

References

Perry MO, Snyder WH, Thal ER: Carotid artery injuries caused by blunt trauma. Ann Surg 1980;192 (1):74-77
Sasser PL, Stein MA, Johnson JK: Blunt carotid artery trauma: diagnosis and management. Contemp Surg 1992;41:(4)55-59
Pozzati E, Giuliani G, Poppi M, et al: Blunt traumatic carotid dissection with delayed symptoms. Stroke 1989;20(3):412-416
Welling RE, Saul TG, Tew JM Jr, et al: Management of blunt injury to the internal carotid artery. J Trauma 1987;27(11):1221-1226
Zelenock GB, Kazmers A, Whitehouse WM Jr, et al: Extracranial internal carotid artery dissections: noniatrogenic traumatic lesions. Arch Surg 1982;117(4): 425-432
Reddy K, Furer M, West M, et al: Carotid artery dissection secondary to seatbelt trauma: case report. J Trauma 1990;30(5):630-633

Cnd of citation.

Does that help on the chiropractic issue?

While a trained Chiropractic Physician will, generally speaking, not engender such damage, errors can and do happen with some frequency, but, due to the occult nature (hidden, not magickal) of these injuries, diagnosis to initial cause can often be missed, as noted in the article.

I must note that I, personally, have benefitted from chiropractic care in the past, but am and continue to be very careful in my selection of the care giver that I use to avoid just such injuries. I am not a physician, but a hypnotherapist and retired martial arts instructor, so, I rely on works such as the one cited above for better information.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Jerrine
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I've seen my D.C. refuse to adjust the cervical region after a patient failed tests that check for the possibility of harm. Done correctly, Chiropractic is the safest form of health care. To say that Chiropractic adjustments increase chance of stroke is just not true.

You have tagged science correctly. Constant improvement, not definitively
knowing what is and isn't. One theory after another. Closer to truths concerning the body, or just another lateral movement?

Insurance companies are just now coming around to the facts that Chiropractic care does prevent disease, as more cover it now. Back in the day, they only covered after the fact care, nothing preventative.

Negative press came from the AMA. I never mentioned a conspiracy. Its simple economics. If more people remain healthy, what happens to drug sales and tests to find out what's wrong, and office visits, hospital stays? I've seen people get healthy and no longer need the multitude of pills, for both physical and mental ailments. Live healthier, happier, productive lives. I realize that it means nothing to you, but much to them. Was everyone Magically cured? No. No responsible D.C. would make that claim. Imagine the body repairing itself, what a crazy idea. Everybody knows you have to take a pill, get an injection, rub a little ointment on it to get better, that's why there are so many of them. Besides, the guy in the white coat said so.

I don't post to change your mind, simply to offer a "hands on" account of the other side of the coin. I think it makes sense to take actions to be healthy, instead of waiting till after the fact to act.
Paul Sherman
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To say that Chiropractic adjustments increase chance of stroke is just not true.

I don't understand how you can say that when dozens of autopsies have found that victims died when their cerebral arteries were torn by a chiropractic neck adjustment. Some of these people died DURING or IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the adjustment. Chiropractic adjustment didn't just RAISE their risk of stroke, it CAUSED a stroke. Moreover, a leading chiropractic text (Principles and Practice of Chiropractic, Second Edition) contains the following conclusion by a chiropractor regarding "screening techniques":
Quote:
Even after performing the relevant case history, physical examination, and vertebrobasilar function tests, accidents may still occur. There is no conclusive, foolproof screening procedure to eliminate patients at risk. Most victims are young, without [bony] or vascular pathology, and do not present with vertebrobasilar symptoms. The screening procedures described cannot detect those patients in whom [manipulation] may cause an injury. They give a false sense of security to the practitioner
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

I would point out that implicit in that conclusion is the fact that manipulation WILL cause injury in some people. So the argument that chiropractic doesn't cause any increase in the risk of stroke is completely without basis in science or experience.

Now, if you want to argue that the risk of stroke is so vanishingly small that it's worth taking given the "enormous benefits of chiropractic", that's another matter altogether. In fact, this IS the argument made by chiropractors (who acknowldge that there is a risk of stroke). However, none of these chiropractors has ever been able to demonstrate in scientificallly controlled studies that there is ANY benefit to chiropractic care that is anything greater than one could get through massage therapy.

If chiropractic can prevent disease, then it can certainly survive peer review by physicians. It should be easy, then, for the chiropractic community to point to some peer-reviewed, controlled, scientific study that confirms that adjustment of the spine can prevent disease. They have never been able to do this.

If an M.D. routinely performed a "medical procedure" (if indeed you could call it that) that could result in the death of a patient and had never been scientifically established as having any more benefit than a completely safe alternative, and that procedure resulted in the death of his patient, that doctor would be sued for malpractice and would probably lose his license to practice medicine. Chiropractors are doing this every day, and it's absurd to hold them to a different standard.
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase



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Jerrine
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Guns pointed at the head and discharged kill people.
Responsible people don't do that.
I know a Chiropractor that was the best Army Ranger of them all, won the competition two years in a row, something no one has done before or since, who could snap your neck like a twig. He is one of the most careful D.C.'s I've seen, why? Because he is responsible and knows the potential risk when cervical adjustments are performed incorrectly. That is why they attend schools to learn how and when. They don't fall off a turnip truck and start whipping folks heads around.
Responsible D.C.'s perform tests to determine those that should not be adjusted by hand. A device, called an activator, applies a quick, short, thrust that in some cases can be used to adjust as an alternative. Wow! an alternative to an alternative. It is commonly used on people with osteoporosis, another group of people that no responsible D.C. would use a drop table or manually adjust. Newborn babies fall into this category as well. Veterinarians use it on a variety of animals too.

Chiropractic, just like Medical procedures and guns, are tools. Used incorrectly, yes they can kill. To say Chiropractic adjustments in and of themselves are dangerous is false.

"If chiropractic can prevent disease, then it can certainly survive peer review by physicians. It should be easy, then, for the chiropractic community to point to some peer-reviewed, controlled, scientific study that confirms that adjustment of the spine can prevent disease. They have never been able to do this."

And never will either. Show me someone you can prove will get a specific disease and we can talk about it. As for myself, I haven't been ill and feel much better, with more energy and a more positive attitude since receiving Chiropractic care. Going on 7 years now. Of course I learned from same D.C. that what I eat and drink matters, and the benefit of regular exercise. Diet was never mentioned by any M.D. I went to, nor exercise for that matter. Have I remained healthy by some stroke (Ha! that's a good one!)of luck, because of proper diet and exercise, or spinal adjustments? I honestly can't tell you. However I think that a nervous system that is functioning properly isn't hurting me any. Of course no scientific tests were done, no control group, so I must be full of it huh?

Chiropractic is safe and bad D.C.'s get hammered just like bad M.D.'s. Another reason no responsible D.C. wouldn't carry insurance in this far too litigious society we live in. I say more D.C.'s, less Lawyers.
rnaviaux
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As far as mental illness is concerned one should read Thomas Zsasz' works on the subject. Most notably "The Myth of Mental Illness."

Randy
Paul Sherman
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Quote:
On 2005-10-04 03:11, Jerrine wrote:
Responsible D.C.'s perform tests to determine those that should not be adjusted by hand.

When a leading chiropractic textbook states, as I posted above, that these tests are incapable of identifying individuals at risk of stroke from chiropractic neck adjustment, I think the insufficiency of this argument is made clear.
Quote:
"If chiropractic can prevent disease, then it can certainly survive peer review by physicians. It should be easy, then, for the chiropractic community to point to some peer-reviewed, controlled, scientific study that confirms that adjustment of the spine can prevent disease. They have never been able to do this."

And never will either. Show me someone you can prove will get a specific disease and we can talk about it.

If that were a requirement to prove scientific validity, we would never be able to demonstrate the efficacy of any disease preventative drug or vaccine. However, it is not necessary to know with certainty who will develop a disease/condition in order to prove that a particular course of treatment works. One can easily demonstrate the effectiveness of a treatment method using statistics.

Select two sample populations of sufficient size. Use one as a treatment group and the other as a control. Give chiropractic care focused on the prevention of stomach ailments to one, give no special care to the other. After a sufficient test period, check to see if the treatment group has a statistically significant decreased incidence of stomach ailments (while providing controls for other variables). Studies like this are done all the time to demonstrate things like the effectiveness of daily aspirin regimens in warding off heart disease.

If chiropractic has any scientific validity, it should stand up to this kind of statistical observation. If it doesn't, it won't. So far, it hasn't.

Quote:
However I think that a nervous system that is functioning properly isn't hurting me any.

Who can argue with this point? However, your statement begs the question, because there's no evidence that chiropractic care has any effect on the functioning of your nervous system (except for when it causes strokes).

Quote:
Of course no scientific tests were done, no control group, so I must be full of it huh?

I don't think you're full of it. I think you genuinely believe that chiropractic care has helped to keep you healthy. However, you openly acknowledge that when you started receiving chiropractic care you started taking better care of yourself generally. I'd say that's a pretty significant independent intervening variable and that, apart from any personal gratification/placebo-effect you experience from chiropractic, this variable probably explains all the benefits you feel you've experienced. One could make the argument that you wouldn't have adopted these changes in your lifestyle if you hadn't seen a chiropractor, and that the benefit you receive from these changes outweighs any minimal risk. However, you could receive the same benefits from visiting a nutritionist and a personal trainer, without exposing yourself to any of the acknowledged risks of chiropractic manipulation. You'd probably also get better advice because you'd to speaking with specialists in those fields.

As for point about the relative benefits conferred on society by chiropractors as compared to lawyers, I would note that when a lawyer causes someone to have an aneurysm, he at least has the courtesy to do it with his bill, instead of his bare hands.

In summation, you and I are obviously going to have to agree to disagree on these issues. I'm fine with that. My goal here was not to convince you personally--or anyone who already believes to the contrary--that chiropractic is a pseudoscience with no medical benefit. My goal was simply to share this fact with the other readers of this thread. I think I've done that as clearly as I'm capable of so, while I welcome your response, I'm done posting in this particular thread.
"The finished card expert considers nothing too trivial that in any way contributes to his success..." Erdnase



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Jerrine
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Wonderful, I agree to disagree as well. I personally don't care what you think nor would I try to convince you of anything. My goal was to refute your claims, offer a view different than Chiropractic is a dangerous procedure without merit, a glorified massage, and to point out that medical doctors never even mentioned diet or any other kind of possibility other than a drug they and their kind provided.

There is no such thing as a leading Chiropractic textbook.

Statisics Schmatistics. They can "prove" anything. Now you want to step away from the scientific process, which is clearly defined.

There is evidence that Chiropractic benefits the public, listen to the people, I've delt with thousands. As far as alternitive medicine in general, Millions of Chinese can't be that wrong, they have been at it a long time now.

My D.C. does specialize in diet and exercise and numbness in the extremities that vanishes after adjustment is not a placebo. There is direct cause and effect.

Funny lawyer joke. Here is another Q. What do you call a lawyer with a 40 I.Q.?
A. Your Honor
Sean
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Insurance companies are just now coming around to the facts that Chiropractic care does prevent disease, as more cover it now. Back in the day, they only covered after the fact care, nothing preventative.


That's funny. In the California Workers' Compensation system (in which I am a practicing attorney), chiropractic care is limited to 24 visits nowadays. The insurance carriers are extremely skeptical of chiropractic care and using a DC as your treating physician makes a claim much more difficult.

Paul -- don't argue with a chiro junkie. It's like wrestling a pig. You can't win.
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Quote:
On 2005-10-04 19:49, Jerrine wrote:
Statisics Schmatistics. They can "prove" anything. Now you want to step away from the scientific process, which is clearly defined.

There is evidence that Chiropractic benefits the public, listen to the people, I've delt with thousands. As far as alternitive medicine in general, Millions of Chinese can't be that wrong, they have been at it a long time now.



Statistics don't "prove" anything. People always like using that line and don't really understand what the problem is. That line has become a cliche. The problem with statistics is they are often misinterpreted and misused. What I mean is that people often draw the wrong conclusions (deliberately or otherwise) from statistics, which is more a result of a lack of understanding of the subject. But to say statistics can "prove" anything, are you prepared to back that up?

And going to your evidence of chiropractic benefits to the public, if anecdotal evidence is all you need, then fairies might be real too. I listen to the people, and even if the majority of people believed something was right, that wouldn't mean that they were right. The Chinese used to believe mercury brought you immortality. Tons of Chinese believed that. They were wrong. We used to believe to cure somebody of sickness, you had to bleed it out. We were wrong about that. Heck, at the time of Galileo, most people thought heavier objects necessarily fell faster. They were wrong about that too. What about the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who believed Hitler was doing the right thing. They were also wrong. I could go on and on.

Just because lost of people believe something doesn't make it true.

And I can tell you it's certainly a good thing that science doesn't work like that.

Derrick
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"Just because lost of people believe something doesn't make it true.

And I can tell you it's certainly a good thing that science doesn't work like that."

Are you sure science doesn't work like that?

I've only had to go to the chiroprator a couple times. There was ample evidence that he did something for me. What was the evidence? Well, first of all he took xrays of my neck. Even I, an untrained layman, could see it was twisted. He did an "adjustment" and then took another xray. Twist gone. I say "adjustment" as I thought he hadn't done anything. I seriously thought he was gypping me as I didn't feel a thing. But the migraine that I had been having for the last 30 days gradually went away that day.

A couple follow up visits to check on the spinal alignment but not to do any adjustments. INteresting he mentioned in my first visit his goal was to train me how to keep myslef from ever having to go to a chiroprator again. Which he did.

By the way he was a Grostic Chiropractor for those of you that know anything about the subject.

That was 25 years ago.

Randy
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People join the medical system to learn all to become a doctor,and their training is based on advances through medicine,when accupunture came on the scene western medicine would not accept it because it was not what they were taught,women have had ceasarian operations (cutting them open with a scalpel) after having accupunture,the west realise hey maybe there is more to this than meets the eye,and so gets accepted by many doctors as alternative treatment.
A doctor prescribes medicines that have roots (pun intended) in flora,bark, roots,weeds, doesn,t a herbalist do the same thing?
One important thing to bear in mind, if you go to see a doctor, he has a lot more knowledge than ME, but so does a herbalist, quack etc.So we seek to get cured even if it meets taking the alternative route.
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Clinical trials anyone?

What phase of deployment is this treatment in?

Want to talk turkey or just gobble gobble for those who don't know about the quicksilver controversy?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
mike paris
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Jonathan, quicksilver, we call it mercury,i believe this has been used in the passed for treatments, but apart from being dangerous to use, if you get a temperature its got to rise up to your head (think about it), its also poisonous. I have not heard about any controvosy, maybe you can explain?
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