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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Best cups for medieval event? (2 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Payne
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Quote:
On 2006-03-10 20:13, gerard1973 wrote:
Poesjenel:

The best cups for a medieval event would probably be any style of cup made out of brass, copper or wood. Aluminium cups did not exist at that time.


Aluminium existed in the mediaeval period. It is a naturally occuring mineral, albeit rare. Granted your average street Juggler in the period could ill afford a set of aluminium cups as they would have been worth many, many times their weight in gold it would still be possible, but highly unlikely, for a set of aluminium cups to exist in period.
The little crochet balls on the other hand are totally out of period as that form of textile work didn't come about until the nineteenth century.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
TheAmbitiousCard
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I've had many leather cups made this way but as a single chop cup.
I never saw much of a market for them as a set of three.
They do have the recessed bottom. I have one set somewhere near completion
that I'm giving to Mr. Palmer for the museum.

Here's a photo of similar cups. They are hand-stitched.
If you're really interested in them, I can look into making them again
as a standard item.

http://www.theambitiouscard.com/img/th-023.jpg
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Bill Palmer
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If you were going to use leather cups at a Medieval event, these would be perfect.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
KirkG
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While it is nice to be totally authentic, oxidized copper cups will pass for most audiences and faire administration.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2006-03-12 22:15, KirkG wrote:
While it is nice to be totally authentic, oxidized copper cups will pass for most audiences and faire administration.



Yes, cause as we all know they never polished metal in the middle ages.
Shiny cups are just as "autherntic" as tarnished ones.
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Bill Palmer
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Now, Payne, you have to realize that there is "authentic" and there is "authentic." Smile

Nobody would come to a Renaissance Festival that had an "authentic" sewage disposal system.

Gardy loo!
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

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BSutter
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Quote:

Aluminium existed in the mediaeval period. It is a naturally occuring mineral, albeit rare. Granted your average street Juggler in the period could ill afford a set of aluminium cups as they would have been worth many, many times their weight in gold it would still be possible, but highly unlikely, for a set of aluminium cups to exist in period.
The little crochet balls on the other hand are totally out of period as that form of textile work didn't come about until the nineteenth century.


I beg to differ;
Copper, lead and tin have been used by man for thousands of years. Aluminum, on the other hand, was not "discovered" until 1808 (less than 200 years ago) although early civilizations used aluminium-bearing clays to make pottery and aluminum salts were used in making dyes and medicines. In 1854 we learned how to produce aluminum commercially. Today, you can't live without it! Well, you could, but it would take a lot of getting used to for most of us!

Aluminum - in its metallic form - does not exist naturally. It is found only in combination with other minerals in the form of silicate and oxide compounds which make up about 8 per cent of the earth's crust. Aluminum is the third most common crustal element and the most common crustal metal on earth. These mineral compounds are very stable and it took many years of research to find a way to remove the metal from the ore minerals in which it is found.

Aluminum can be very strong, light (less than one third the specific gravity of steel, copper or brass), ductile, and malleable. It is an excellent conductor of heat and electricity. Polished aluminum has the highest reflectivity of any material - even mirror glass. It can be cast, rolled or extruded into an infinite variety of shapes. It has unique barrier properties as a packaging material, it resists corrosion and it can be recycled Đ again and again and again, with no loss of quality or properties. Mixed with small, often minute, quantities of other materials such as iron, silicon, zinc, copper, magnesium, tin, titamium, lithium, chromium, tungsten, manganese, nickel, zirconium and boron, it is possible to produce an array of alloys with very different physical properties.

The following are important dates in the history of the discovery of aluminum and in the progress of our knowledge and use of this important metal we depend on every day.
1808: Sir Humphrey Davy (Britain) discovered the existence of the shiny metal we are so dependent on today and gave it a name - Aluminum.
1821: P. Berthier (France) discovered a hard, reddish, clay-like material containing 52 per cent aluminum oxide near the village of Les Baux in southern France. He called it bauxite - after the village. Today, we recognize bauxite as the most common ore of aluminum.
1825: Hans Christian Oersted (Denmark) produced very small quantities of aluminum metal by mixing dilute potassium amalgam with anhydrous aluminum chloride. When the two were allowed to react chemically, a residue of slightly impure aluminum was produced.
1827: Freidrich Wohler (Germany) developed a method for producing aluminum powder through a chemical reaction between potassium and anhydrous aluminum chloride.
1845: Wohler determined the specific gravity of aluminum (2.7) which illustrated one of its unquie physical properties - it was extremely light in weight compared to most metals known at the time.
1854: Henri Sainte-Claire Deville (France) create the first commercial process for producing aluminum which - at that time - was more valuable than gold.
1855: A bar of aluminum was exhibited alongside the Crown Jewels at the Paris Exhibition.
1885: Hamilton Y. Cassner (USA) improved on Deville's process for producing aluminum and 15 tons were produced that year!
1886: Two unknown young scientists, Paul Louis Toussaint Heroult (France) and Charles Martin Hall (USA), working separately and unaware of each other's work, simultaneously invented a new electrolytic process (eventually called the Hall-Heroult process) which is the basis for all aluminum production today. They discovered that if they dissolved aluminum oxide (alumina) in a bath of molten cryolite and passed a powerful electric current through it, molten aluminum would be deposited at the bottom.
1888: The first aluminum companies were founded in France, Switzerland and the USA
1889: Freidrich Bayer (Austria), son of the founder of the Bayer chemical company, invented the Bayer Process for the large scale production of alumina from bauxite.

Bill
Payne
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There is evidence that it existed before the Nineteenth century. Pliny wrote.

"One day a goldsmith in Rome was allowed to show the Emperor Tiberius a dinner plate of a new metal. The plate was very light, and almost as bright as silver. The goldsmith told the Emperor that he had made the metal from plain clay. He also assured the Emperor that only he, himself, and the Gods knew how to produce this metal from clay. The Emperor became very interested, and as a financial expert he was also a little concerned. The Emperor felt immediately, however, that all his treasures of gold and silver would decline in value if people started to produce this bright metal of clay. Therefore, instead of giving the goldsmith the regard expected, he ordered him to be beheaded."

Alchemists had a symbol for it so its existence was known in the middle ages.
It is conceivable that a few people while attempting to create a philosopher stone stumbled upon a way to extract aluminum for themselves.
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TheAmbitiousCard
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"...to be beheaded".

at least he didn't get grilled alive like st. lawrence.

in the photo above I have felt balls (an idea from Payne, no less)
that, in the right colors, would seem perfect.
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johnnymystic
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Hey Frank, I'm sure more than a few people are interested in your leather cups. I for one would like to get a set someday soon, however my next set will be the Phoenix Cups.

johnny
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KirkG
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Payne,

While shiny cups in silver and other metals could certainly exist, nothing says "old" to the muggles like tarnished metal.

Kirk
professorwhut
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I found a link on how to remove lacquer from copper.


http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumbing1......ing.html
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TG Pop [aka ProfessorWhut]
Pete Biro
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The only problem is that Harries said the clear is "baked on" which would mean it is probably epoxy and NOT lacquer.

I think painting them with a spray of "antiquing" coloring would be best.
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Dave V
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The article he cited said "Most pieces of decorative, modern copper are protected by a factory-applied, baked-on lacquer."

Hmmm. Who has a set of Harries they're willing to try this on?
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professorwhut
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I did it to a brand new set of Bosco cups (the same day I got them)
I bought them with this process in mind.
First I tried the acetone method with limited success. (Maybe 20% came off)
Then I boiled them in washing soda, not baking soda. It worked great on 2 of the cups. One still needs more boiling. (It looks spotty). I must warn that they look horrible at first, but over a few days of handling they look great.

You can always experiment on some cheap copper kitchen stuff.
I will try and post a photo later.
After much soul searching about a signature, I decided not to have one.

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lint
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I used a citrus based spray "paint/varnish/lacquer" remover on my Irelands. The clearcoat (whatever it was) melted right off. The stuff smelled nice and is non toxic too! It was very simple. I did two coats and then stuck them in the washer. They are now tarnishing beautifully. Also I had no idea Renaissance fairs were so strict!

-todd
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professorwhut
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Here are my Bosco Cups with no lacquer.

Click here to view attached image.
After much soul searching about a signature, I decided not to have one.

TG Pop [aka ProfessorWhut]
Dave V
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They look awful. In other words, for Ren Faire use, they look great!
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Bill Palmer
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The Irelands and the Boscos are made by two different companies in two different countries. The chances of the finishes being the same are very slim. The toughest finish that I have ever seen on cups was the old Rings and Things Magipoxy finish. It was so tough that even cups that have been very badly dented show little or no signs of tarnishing.

None of the conventional paint removers would even touch it. But there was one chemical, available from a paint company in either St. Louis or Chicago, that would remove it instantly.

Environmental regulations prohibit the use of it under current conditions.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
padre rich
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There is a solvent marketed as "ATTACK". It easily dissolves clear coats of most types. But it's really just trichlorethylene- nasty stuff- I just polish it off with Tripoly using a dental lathe-any buffing wheel will do.You do want to use a fairly agressive polishing compound . I was too lazy to change the wheel (It takes all of 7 seconds) and and used green jeweler's compound and laid into it harder than I normally would . Because it really wasn't abraisive enough to chew of the epoxy quickly the wheel broke through in some place and not others resulting many subtle streaky looking gouges . Luckily going back over it with tripoly then rouge fixed it.Why is there never time to do right the first time but always time to do it over. Arrrrg! I know better.
God's grace rocks! It makes a good cups and balls routine look pretty boring in comparison.
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