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PennyMagic4U
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OK - So I am new to this forum, but I have been doing magic for 15 years - not a professional, but - here is my question - why is it that so many magicians think they are the only ones who know how a trick is done and they wouldn't teach someone else if their lives depended on it? Give me a break - how did they learn? Just thought this would get a few good answers.
JCPENNY
Simply Magic
PennyMagic4U by Jerry Penny
Frank Tougas
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People are people. Some want to keep things to themselves simply so they can act one up on you. Magic gives them a unique excuse to make that behavior okay. I have always found that if you show a genuine interest in the art, decent magicians are happy to help you out.

Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
español jeff
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I'm not sure there are so many magicians who want to keep their material/secrets to themselves. I've met a lot of people who are very generous with their knowledge if, as Frank has said, you have a genuine interest. In fact, some of the best around are also the most generous.
I suspect that part of the issue with those who are more guarded is an underlying belief of ownership and insecurity. And that If they give away their secrets then they won't be so unique.
pkg
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The City of Ithobaal I son of Hiram I
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Ask your grandma if she would give you the recipe to her gravy...

it's all about personal choice. I myself, worked my *** off to get where I am now (and still an amateur) and I wouldnt just give away anything.

spent endless hours, days nights practicing, researching, lots of my questions didn't get an answer. sweat blood and endless hours (yes blood, some cards can cut! Smile ) and stupid amounts of money (which I don't regret spending at all). not just gonna give anything away, not even for the right price!( and the right price here would be a devoted student, serious, who has covered AT LEAST the basics in magic.)

just my 2 cents...
Double posters should be shot!

No really!!
Frank Tougas
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I think my point has been proven.

Frank Tougas
Frank Tougas The Twin Cities Most "Kid Experienced" Children's Performer :"Creating Positive Memories...One Smile at a Time"
abc
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I don't think magicians "hide' their secrets from people who want to become magicians at all. In fact there is an old saying that goes "if you want to keep something a secret just put it into print".
I personally only keep secrets from the people who just want to know how an effect is done so that they can know. These people break down the art and do not appreciate the amount of time that not only goes into practising something but also for the inventer into designing or thinking up something and getting it ready to be performed the first time.
So to go back to paragraph one. If a new person just goes out and buys some books or nowadays DVD's you can learn close to every magic effect in the world from Coin tricks to stage illusions to mentalism to cold reading to whatever you want. It is no longer a secret. Infact it hasn't been since the middle ages.
PennyMagic4U
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So - Frank - Your point is well taken. I have run into my share of the ones who think they own the trick - heck we both know they bought it just like we did. Point in case - I am at a meeting with several magicians and this guy does a linking ring routine. I enjoyed the performance. I did a rope routine that he enjoyed and told me so. I asked him if he wanted to learn the routine - two guesses what his answer was. So I said why don't we teach each other the other ones routine. Absolutely not was the response - his was far more valuable than mine - or so he wanted me to believe that anyway. A sorry event for both of us - I know to this day he still does not do ropes because he doesn't have confidience in his performance. I could have taught him in a couple of lessons. I have taught a countless number of magicians how to do the rope routine over the years - Yes I learned some on my own and have created a different approach then the standard rope routine, but heck I didn't invent the rope tricks. Just a sad way to hold the enjoyment of magic back.
JCPENNY
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Kent Wong
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If a magician shows a genuine interest in magic, I don't have any difficulties in helping with their abilities or providing suggestions and assistance to even improve their business. But there are eithical limits that I must respect. For instance, if the trick is a commercially avaiable effect, I don't think I have the right to expose the secret, whether it be to a genuinely interested magician or not.

I can, however, give an honest critique of the trick along with a demonstration of it. That way, my magician colleague can make a truly informed decision when spending his hard earned money. Once my magician friend has purchased the trick, I will give him all the help he needs in mastering it.

I'm never really concerned about someone trying to "steal my patter" because it won't fit anyone else but me. If a fellow magician performs the same effect, but he has made the routine his own, then he has created something truly unique.
"Believing is Seeing"
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acmp
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Nicely on the ball as usuall Frank ;-)

I'm the sort of guy who helps others, I open doors for people, no matter who they are. I let cars join the queue and I always say thank you to the cashiere at the shops. I'd help anyone with magic, if they were really interested.

I don't think I'd give away 'marketed' ideas and methods that would allow them to do the trick, but I would probably tip stuff if it helped them decide if the trick was for them.

I'm a firm believer in 'give something back' which doesn't seem popular in this 'take whatever you can get' world.

My advice to the grinches out there is simple. Do something selfless for someone, what goes around comes around.

I feel better for that.
acmp<><

"Well if I had one wish in this god forsaken world, kids
It'd be that your mistakes would be your own"
Parson Smith
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Quote:
On 2005-10-12 16:12, acmp wrote:

My advice to the grinches out there is simple. Do something selfless for someone, what goes around comes around.

I feel better for that.


Thanks ACMP,
Good advice.
Peace,
Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty. Smile
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swee
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It all depends on how you see it
Mustang
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I think it works two ways - the less experienced magician is worried about exposure, so doesn't share anything to feel that he is on a different side of the fence to s/he who is asking. The more experienced magician (whose secrets are probably far more valuable) will probably be much more willing to share to those who deserve it. In response to not wanting to "give away anything because you have worked so hard for it," if they have a genuine interest, what's wrong with telling them? They too will have to work very hard to be able to make use of whatever it is you've shown them, but then at your discretion, you should not show it if you don't think they are capable/ready.
"A magician is one who appreciates the difference between knowing how a trick is done, and knowing how to do a trick."
rikbrooks
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Of course there are the elitists that won't reveal anything at all. I can only imagine that those people believe that they are taking their vow of secrecy seriously. I think that they are a little misguided. I've never met anyone like that but I'm sure that there are a significant number that are that way. There are fanatics in every group that see everything as black and white.

Then there are those that are afraid that if they give away their 'secrets' then they will lose whatever 'edge' they have. They may have worked very hard and looked for years to find that 'something' that both fits them and sets them apart. There is no harm in that. I can understand someone not wanting to give away his signature effects - especially if he invented them. I don't think that you are talking about these guys though.

Then there are the consciencious ones that don't want to see the art suffer. I side with them. If you told me that you've never done cups and balls and would I show you how to do my routine I would turn you down even if I knew that you serious about magic. Why? Because my routine is rather complex and you would do it poorly - unless I wanted to dedicate a lot of time teaching you the basics and frankly, right now, I don't have the time to teach - I already have too much on my plate. So in this case you might think that I would fall into that category.

I once asked Mickey Silver to show me how he did his SUV. Nobody had warned me that he won't show anyone how to do that so I asked. I offered to pay him to teach me. He refused. He was good-natured about it but firm. It didn't hurt my feelings at all. That's Mickey's signature and he worked hard at learning it.

Then again, there are also self-righteous boors out there too. I fear that if you catch me on a particularly bad day I may fall into that category - but not usually.
mstick85
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Hello all;

If I may add my two cents worth of experience here. I had posted a response to a thread in a cups and balls post. I subsequently began talking with one of the people who had posted in the thread. This person was very friendly, very knowledgeable, and very helpful. He has been more than willing to share his ideas, suggestions, hints, tips, advice, whatever you want to call it. Personally, myself, I call it invaluable.

Anyway, my point is this. This guy had no obligation to share any information with me. Now granted, I didn't ask him any secrets to any of his effects, like how do you DO that Nickels to Dimes trick? But he has been most helpful, and I have been most appreciative of his comments.

In fact, one of the best things that he told me (other than you have to practice this stuff- hey, I'm only half joking- I really do not practice that much), was that the presentation goes a long way in making the effect. And you know what? He's right.

So, I have to say that there are guys and gals out there who are willing to help out a fellow magician.

Thanks!
Mark
"Go Browns!"
george kaye
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Dear Penny,
The worst vice is advice!
Having said that -
Magic is a very secretive art. The magician is very used to keeping his own council. When I get into the company of other magicians I will talk about moves, routines, fakes, principals etc. I try not to talk about my favourite effects or I find everybody doing them in no time at all. I don't mind sharing but I don't want everybody doing my act!
Hugs,
George
ethanrhunt
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I'm no veteran magician, but this is what I have found: There are a few kinds of audience members out there. There is of course the kind of person that truly enjoys not knowing how a trick is done and likes witnessing something that is seemingly magical. Those are the nice people. They want to know how the trick is done, but they like being impressed just as much and if you don't tell them they won't hold it against you. There are also the anti-magicians that learn the tricks and, I don't know if they buy them or have magicians as friends or watched a TV special or what, not only do they know the trick, but they want everyone else to know too, so during or after the trick they just give away the secret. I don't understand these people, I think they just need attention and control. Someone could say every magician is like this, but I don't think it is in the same spirit that true magicians crave attention and control. These are the people that I would not tell my secrets to, and it is the reason I resist telling my secrets to just anybody because once they know some of them go crazy. Then there are the magicians, whether they do routines or just have a few tricks they have known since they were five, these people know there is a trick, appreciate it and want to replicate what you've done. These are the people in the audience that know the trick but only do what they know is going to help the routine they appeciate your presentation. These people are few and far between and I don't have any problem letting them in on a secret here and there. The most important thing, I think, is citing your mentor. If I teach someone a trick and they do it, recieving recognition for my help and guidance is what really matters.
SuperMagicMozart
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Problem with the above post: you seem to confuse some aspects of anti-magicians with hecklers. Hecklers are people who resent the attention that the magician is getting, and think that they can appear cooler by thwarting a trick. The anti-magicians of yours really aren't anti-magicians. Many are people who are genuinely interested in magic, and know more than the average layman. They want attention because they want it known that "I know magic, too." Many of these people aren't familiar with the magician's code, is all. If they are the right type, you can win them over with some of their participation. Make them feel special. They aren't evil.
ethanrhunt
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I hadn't any idea there was a term for them, we call them hecklers, huh? Well, I agree with you on all accounts, and I still think they are the ones a magician should be most careful revealing secrets to, even if the said hecklers are counted among your friends.

Side note:
The term anti-magician was not thought out at all really, but upon further consideration it is sort of ambiguous and encompasses all that it is to be heckler. Say a heckler is a person who is trying to twart the magician in an attempt to steal the spotlight or impress his friends, calling this person an anti-magician would mean "A person who is against magicians" not against magic itself, just the performer of the magic. So I agree that these people may have a genuine interest in magic, but they do hold a grudge against the performer or against theirself for not being the performer. In a similar sense Anti-magician could also mean something that further expresses the problem with the sharing of secrets with the wrong people. Anti-magician could also mean "One who is a magician but uses magic to destroy other magicians." This implies that an anti-magician is a person who uses the secrets of tricks to destroy the illusions presented by the performer. They aren't evil? Well maybe, but they sure are until you win them over. The question is do you have to let them in on it to win them over?
magicalaurie
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Pretty much like Frank said. Magicians are people. Some are appreciative and generous, others are not. Their prerogative. They owe me NOTHING. I've been very impressed with just how appreciative and generous some people are. Smile
SuperMagicMozart
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I'm sorry, my intention wasn't to attack your choice of titles for the characters. I was more concerned with the fact that the anti-magician category encompassed two groups that should be addressed separately.
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