Hmmm. With all the discussion of intellectual property rights in the Café, should we do the same with someone elses intellectual property? Even if they are a layperson? I don't see layman, laiety or layperson as religious in tone (this from a former minister). When you hear someone ask someone else to put something on layman's terms, do you see religion in it? I'm a no vote for the "M" word. I believe it to be insulting to our audiences.

I was wondering when the marijuana association with the term "muggles" was going to come up. I have always smiled as the term was used in the whole Harry Potter scene without people knowing the drug slang use for the term. I believe it started in the NY jazz world in the late 1920s or early 1930s.

Let's just call them "the public".

And since we are all fakes, WE are the muggles to real magicians like Jim Galloway/Jim Callahan.

Todd Robbins

Yeah that would be a no hehe.

I dislike the term "Muggles." I would prefer "Mehums," -- mere humans.

In theory a performer should be allowed to employ whatever language he or she feels is appropriate to their style and to the situation.

In practice, no one should ever use the word 'muggles'. Ever. It's a rubbish word.

Also, I really liked the Olivier anecdote.

Bill, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Mundanes? Norms? "wandless ones" < joke

I never did understand what "muggles" meant.
That means layman eh?
Hmmmmm. I vote no also.
Al

By the way Joe Russell
I flunked 2 years of German in college.
Strange thing is my pronounceation is perfect.
Whenever I am around germans I say a few words in german. They are shocked that I sound so perfect. I never knew this. I went to Germany once, to a convention, and came in late, sat at the back of a show that was in progress. Sat next to a lady that said something to me. I said to her, "Ich kann deutsch nict sprechan." (I cannot speak German) She said, "However, you can not speak it very good."

I tried learning Russian, really difficult. I'll take German any day.

I am marrying into a spanish family. So, I guess I will need to learn some of that.
Opps, got carried away here.
Al

There is a flaw in that argument Jon. Muggles are not supposed to know the existence of we wizards. Crazy talk like that may get you in deep doodoo with the Ministry of Magic! You have been warned!

Frank Tougas

Another No for Joe

Tom

What then are we supposed to be doing if not using real magic?

After being away from the magic scene for a while, to re-enter it and even hear the word "layman" is disconcerting, "muggle" is even worse. Of course these are just words. Means to an end, ways of expressing ourselves. After 9 months back into magic the term "layman" has reard it's ugly head again I find myself using it again both in discussion and in my inner diologue. I know that this is bad because it ultimately has the affect of alienating yourself from your audience.

I was watching a young man perform a card routine and durring an otherwise fine demonstration, he kept using term "spectator" throughout the course of his presentation, As in "one time I asked a spectator to cut the cards and he did it like this, another spectator looked at the deck and...Even this term I found to be quite egregious. I'm sure those "spectaors" who were watching must have felt it to be even stranger than I because they were of course-- LAY..opps, I almost said it. Well you get the picture.

Another vote for ending the term "muggle". I'd like to end the use of the term "patter" as well- if you don't know why look it up in the dictionary. -
Mark

The thing I like about the term "muggles" is the connotation that goes with it.

In the Harry Potter books, the wizards find the muggles incomprehensible. I take that as a reminder that how I view an effect or performance has little to do with how laymen/muggles/non-magicians will view it. I don't think like they do.

In many respects, it's less elitist than "laymen" can be.

The downside is that it can come across as trendy and riding the coattails of a current fad.

Geoff

Goeff, I don't know that it makes sense to use the term layman or muggle in front of one's audience unless one is trying to annoy.

Audience is a very respectful term and we seldom use it. A spectator sounds like they've stopped to witness an accident. Then again some performances...

Frank Tougas

Oh, absolutely. Either term is definitely a "backstage" term for use when trying to delineate the difference in perspective between magicians and non-magicians.

Geoff

Stop calling "layman" muggles? That's layperson.

How about calling them "Ladies and gentlemen," instead? Or using their names? I refer to people as either magicins or my audiences, volunteers or participants as all of these terms denote respect, which I genuinely have for them.

I have heard "muggle" used, "layperson," or even "mundane," which is often used by Ren Faire of SCA folk in referring to people who are not in "garb" or costume. Personally, I find the terms to be a bit off-putting for those who do not understand their meaning and, some people who are not "in" on the lingo cna get insulted by the terms.

I tend to dislike the labels anyway, simply because I grew up the proverbial "Charlie Brown" character in my neighborhood until my junior high school years and my martial arts career began. But I remember the sting of some of those words and, to be honest, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but bones heal - the wounds from words, often never do." - Fritz Perlz

So try losing the labels for people who aren't magicians and just refer to them as what they are - people. It's amazing the impact it will have on your own outlook on THEM. in fact, they tend to become no longer THEM at all!

Lee Darrow, C.H.

Lee, as people they live with the illusion of magic and without any awareness of the methods by which we create that perception of magic. How do we remind ourselves of that distinction between the world they live in and the world we have built in which to offer them magic?

I'm not keen on the term 'muggles' as I'm not a Harry Potter fan. But I agree with Jonathan that it would be useful to have a term to remind ourselves of the differences between the magical characters we portray and the people in our audiences.

Of course, offstage, we may be regular people and sometimes audience members, too. But onstage, it seems to me that the characters we portray step from worlds importantly different from this one. Our actions as magicians serve not only to establish these differences, but also to transport people not of those worlds to these unusual places.

I think of it like this. Imagine you had the ability to cross over, however briefly, into another stream of the multiverse, taking bits of our universe with you. Now, if people in that other universe became aware of your remarkable presence - perhaps through your entertaining demonstrations - would they, or you, be in any doubt that you were made of fundamentally different stuff? Sure, they're still 'people' in the general sense, and they may even congregate in 'audiences', but you are not of their world, and they are not of yours.

So maybe if you found yourself stuck in that other world for any length of time, you would need a word to remind yourself of who and what you were, and the very special place you came from?

I know I do...