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daffydoug
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In the world of magic and magicians in general, what do you have a problem ...I mean really have a problem with?

Sound off! Smile Smile Smile
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
ryansmagic
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Good Topic I am sure this can get intresting.
Here I go.
The thing that bugs me is the stance of SOME "Old School" magicians have, that most young or begining magicians are a really lower then they are. Like when they throw out terms and reference books that you are some how supposed to know and make you feel stupid when you don't.
For the record I am 26 and doing magic since I was 18. that's almost 8 adult years, but there is still soooo much to learn. Also I have run into very little of this mostly because I am a part of the most friendly magic circle ever...Reading, PA, The Mingus Magic Shop, IBM Ring #57, SAM #92 (some of the best people you will ever meet).

For a second thing that bugs me.....
When Magic Café members refer new people to do a searcg rather than having the same thread over again. If you don't want to discuss the thread again than don't. Not everybody reads these boards everyday.
Ryan Parsons
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http://www.magicformiracles.com
Alex Linian
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I only have a problem with people who perform badly and damage our art by doing so.

I feel sorry for:

People who think they are magicians because they bought a couple tricks online...People who do not respect the art and think it is fine to expose other people's materials...People who only do magic to be like another magician, and be "cool"...people who only worry about improving themselves as Technicians and who treat magic like a skill...people who worry too much about impressing magicians instead of laymen...people who market or publish undeveloped ideas as soon as they come up with them just because they wanna make a name for themselves...people who are always wasting money because they wanna have the latest thing...people who don't read books...people who don't realize that a top change can have stronger impact than a Raise Rise switch...
Beth
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It really upsets me that so many magicians refuse to speak out against those that take the creative works of others. I know it is a difficult thing to do. It is for me too, but if you don't speak out ones silence is a tacit form of agreement. That upsets me more than anything in magic.
Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
George Ledo
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This isn't so much something that really burns me, as something that I find strange, interesting, and sad... and so different from when I was active in magic a number of years ago. Let me see if I can explain it correctly.

From what I've been reading in the Café for a couple of years, a "magician" is a "magician." There seems to be no differentiation between:

Magic as an occasional hobby;
Magic as a serious hobby;
Magic as a passionate hobby;
Magic as a part-time business;
Magic as a part-time profession;
Magic as a full-time profession.

Donna and I play golf now and then. We don't refer to ourselves as golfers, and certainly don't see ourselves as doing the same thing that, say, Tiger or Vijay do. If someone asks, we say, sure, we play golf now and then. There are amateur golfers who are very passionate about golf, but they still consider themselves amateurs. And they seem to be okay with this.

We also own a very nice telescope with a selection of eyepieces and stuff. That doesn't make us astronomers. In fact, astronomy magazines are always talking about "amateur astronomers" and the contributions they make to the field. Amateur astronomers seem to be okay with this.

She is a wonderful cook and probably owns more stuff than Williams-Sonoma sells, and knows how to use it. She also has umpteen cookbooks. But she doesn't consider herself a "chef:" she just says she enjoys cooking.

I've been around magic for over thirty years, used to perform part-time professionally when I was in my late teens, own a number of books and props, and now I'm writing a column here in the Café. But I don't call myself a "magician." I just say, yeah, I'm interested in magic and I'm writing this column; right now it's a hobby. I don't see anything wrong with that.

In fact, the word "amateur" comes from the Latin term for love. It's not a derogatory term. An amateur astronomer is, literally, somebody who is involved in astronomy because he or she loves astronomy.

Magic can be a wonderful hobby. But how is it that anyone who buys one trick or one DVD or one book or joins the Café or just hangs out at the local magic shop suddenly becomes "a magician?" Is there something wrong, or degrading, or something else, with just being "an amateur magician" like in the old days?
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here"
kregg
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Magic and magicians on the television don't translate as being very magical. So, for the sake of better magic... take acting classes.
POOF!
tommy
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Doing magic for a living does not make you a magician.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Ignore me...
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Both here at the Café and at the local shop, there are two types of folks interested in learning magic: those who will invest their own time in learning things, and those who won't. The ones who ask for help, but will put in their own time, are the ones we always recognise as having the ability to actually learn and become decent performers, regardless of whether they will go pro or not. The ones who ask but never seem to actually care enough to put in the work, and/or who don't want to invest any of their own time in getting ahead, will always be the ones who make us shake our heads.

This afternoon, a kid came into the local shop and asked about routines with dice. He was shown multiple sources from which he could learn, and he decided to save and get the one he thought would be most useful to him. Another kid came in and showed what she had been doing with a product she had bought; it was a simple trick, but she had invested the time in coming up with a plausible story line, and had actually become POLISHED at presenting it. Everyone loved these two kids.

Then came in another kid, who asked for tricks that were like "street magic." He rolled his eyes at anything that was either available in a book, or that required practice. He said that he didn't want to have to read anything, and wondered why we wouldn't just show him everything, instead of his having to put in any effort of his own.

It's unfortunate when all beginners are judged by how the third kid acted (and by kid, I mean roughly before age 21). However, I have heard such people complain that no one would give them sources, even after they had been shown great places from which to learn that were all available to the learner; it wasn't that the more experienced performers weren't willing to help, they just weren't willing to spoonfeed someone.

The older a person is, the more difficult it is to believe that they won't put in the effort themselves, and yet will expect others to put in the effort to make things as easy as possible. I have to laugh about posters here who spend hours on the Café asking for things, but who will not use the search function to find it. In one case, I found the full instructions to making the item a poster was asking about, but when told that such results could be found, the poster informed me that he would just ignore my advice to use the search function. *laugh* Now THAT'S chutzpah! *laugh*

So, what bothers me? Folks who view others' refusal to spoonfeed them as a negative facet of the refusers, instead of recognising their demands as a comment on their own laziness. *laugh*
Lee Darrow
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"Magicians" who look down their noses at the "lay public." and who say things like, "I don't perform for lay people." To me, that's a deadly insult not only to the "lay person," but to every performing magician that has ever lived. That person is not a magician, but a mere technician.

Exposers. And I rate Penn and Teller right at the top of the list. Say what you will about the "bad boys of magic," but when you get right down to it, they are exposers. Mall shops that huckster professional level magic equipment like it was the stuff that used to be called "slum magic" also fall into this category. Hawking Sun and Moon coin sets to travelling salesmen who give them to their ten year-old nephews does nothing but expose the trick. Ask me about the 200 (that's right!) kids at Medieval Times who YELLED out the names of the cards on a Leslie deck because ONE of them had bought a knockoff (DeKraam) at a shop with the STATED purpose of telling all of their friends how it worked!

Slammers. People who have nothing but criticism for others and nothing positive to contribute to anything. If you don't have anything positive to say - shut up until you can think of something!

Flamers - see slammers. Smile

Idea thieves - covered by others, however, some of the accreditation police can get a little overzealous on this. Not all of us have access to the vast libraries of a Max Maven or a Richard Kaufman. It's really tough to know what Ed Marlo wrote in crayon on the back of a box of Wheaties in 1932 when the only copy of that material is locked in a safe at Jon Racherbaumer's house. But copping someone else's idea when a reasonable search of the literature would show it, is out of bounds.

Mouths. People who simply post profanity on their blogs about others. Who needs that ^&^%? Smile

And, of course, old turkeys like me, spouting off when the younger magicians know so much more! Smile

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
daffydoug
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I liked that last line!


Posted: Oct 23, 2005 10:20am
----------------------------------------------
I just have to sound off here about magic shops that advertise a new item, then make you wait forever for delivery, only to get a paper that says "Will ship soon"

Yeah, I appreciate you informing me of the status of my order, but I would appreciate it much more if you would refrain from putting the ad on your web site until you have the thing ready to ship. Smile
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
EvanSparts
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Ok here I go, today I went to an amusement park and saw two different magic acts. One was good and one was cheezy,(but that wasnt what ****ed me off). It was that at the conclusion of the shows the performers reminded the audience to stop by the booth to buy some magic tricks.

As I watched the kids and adults buying the Delites, and hover cards and Svengali decks and their instuctional videos that a feeling of disgust came over me.

I think that this sends the message that magic is something that is purchased not learned or taught. I hope I am wrong about this.

Magic is more than a kool-aid package, you cant just add water and have instant magician. I know that most of those items will be played with for a few days before they end up in the bottom of the toy box and all they have done is purchase the secret. I also understand that maybe even a few may have not bought a trick but a life changing item, that may set them on the path to becoming one of the next magical superstars; and that thought atleast gives me comfort.

If it profits that these magicians seek then why not set up booth and sell just the secrets, not the props and spare us all of the terrible non-reheasred magic that will come out of the new "magicians". (I may actually be for this), Just kidding. These secret seekers that have sold their innocennce to magic, only for the know how I feel sorry for, and these performers that have accepted that innocence, Im sorry that they don't hold the art a little bit more sacred.

I hope that isn't the message that the audiences are receiving, because if it is what a sad thing for magic.
Patrick Differ
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You saying I got a problem, pal?

Just kidding! Smile

My biggest problem with myself is that I don't have enough time to work on what I want to do. That's my problem.

Other than that, I wish magic would return to secrecy. I'm not saying that others should not reveal anything, because it is a matter of choice. I'm just saying that I wish that many magicians would choose not to reveal. Where's the fun in it when everybody and their little brother knows what's going on?

That's my beef.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.
Clark
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(1) The fact that so many magicians fail to realize that they can take their magic very seriously...while at the same time not taking themselves so seriously.

(2)That so many would be "teachers" in magic try and place absolute rules to abide by into an art form that is essentially as diverse as everyone's own imagination.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein
Harry Murphy
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What bothers me (but only a little) here on the Café is people who won’t take the time or make the effort to do a search before posting. I would rather see an interesting old thread brought to the top and added to than rehash and retype stuff a second, third, fourth or more time (OK, I’m lazy).

What bothers me about myself is that I sometimes put a routine into the act before its time!

Another thing that bothers me (a little) is that I can come across as a know it all because I tend to write and write on a given subject that I know about and love (then I learned a long time ago that if you want to hide a secret, simple write it in detail and no one will read it!).

Finally, it bothers me is that I sometime forget that magic is about `my love and interest in a very, very small field of interest. I seem to forget that it is not life and death!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
daffydoug
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Quote:
On 2005-10-24 21:04, Patrick Differ wrote:
You saying I got a problem, pal?

Just kidding! Smile

My biggest problem with myself is that I don't have enough time to work on what I want to do. That's my problem.

Other than that, I wish magic would return to secrecy. I'm not saying that others should not reveal anything, because it is a matter of choice. I'm just saying that I wish that many magicians would choose not to reveal. Where's the fun in it when everybody and their little brother knows what's going on?

That's my beef.


To that I can only say a very large AMEN.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
BlackShadow
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Quote:

I think that this sends the message that magic is something that is purchased not learned or taught. I hope I am wrong about this.




Yeah right on... well you have the magic world to thank for that. If it's transactional "it's OK". Moaning about exposure, when they'll actually expose anything you choose for a bit of greed.

I don't think exposure is a big problem. It's magicians mercilessly copying other people's stuff, selling it as their own, copying people's acts. That stifles creativity in both the originators and the perpetrators.
jwebyra
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I agree with all of those who say that they have a problem with people buying magic tricks and then calling themselves magicians, but may I add that what annoys me is how some magicians copy a style of famous magicians in their presentations. If I saw famous magician X perform trick A on television then what makes magician B feel that by coping the routine, patter, and music to the tee of magician A that I (and maybe several others in the audience) will be surprised.

Just my 2% of $1.00

Thank you all for your time

Ron
RandyStewart
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Whether here at the Café or any other magic site, trying to get to the meat of a PRODUCT REVIEW and having to sift through tons of this first:

"Just pre-ordered it and I can't wait!"

"Sounds great! I'll get one"

"I'll get one if I can figure out how to keep it a secret from the wife - do they take money orders vs. credit card?"

"I'm still waiting for mine"

"Called Mr. Magic Dealer and he said they'd be going out tomorrow! Woohoo!"

"Anyone got a review yet?"......

Hehehehe...gotta love it.
Parson Smith
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I suppose that my biggest beef has to do with the "commercialization" of the art.
I know that people need to make a living, but it seems to me that it has become marketing OVER magic.
When I was a young teenager a wonderful man taught me magic. All he wanted was to forward the art of magic.
Through the years, I met many wonderful magicians who wanted no more than that. But I have met some who are clearly only out to make a buck.
I think that making a living from magic is wonderful.
I guess that what I am saying is that I would rather our art was directed more to the general public and that fewer "magicians" were trying to make their fortunes from magicians.
When I was 22 years old, I met a very famous performer. I asked him a straightforward question, and with a great deal of arrogance, he replied that he did not do tricks and that his magic was real. Since then, I have heard people talk about how great he is but I have never responded.

The Café’s slogan of Magicians Helping Magicians would be great if there were not so many Magicians Helping Magicians For A Price.

Of course, the love of money over the love of magic becomes apparent in many ways.
1. Selling strong magic to anyone who wants to do a "trick."
2. Repackaging PD material and selling it for huge prices.
3. Some high profile people taking material that is available and repackaging it as their own.
4. People selling junk as magic.

It is sad that the cloak of mystery of our art can also be used to cloak trash sold as magic.

In the magical arts, we are certainly living in a hyper time of buyer beware.

Some people who sell ideas and apparatus are doing the fraternity a favor. They really try to give more than they take.
Unfortunately, we have our share of takers. And they are not the young kids just getting started.

I also think that it is sad that some "professionals"(and certainly not all) are condescending to other magicians. To me, the idea that the only real magicians are the ones who are doing it for money is preposterous.
Some of the best magicians that I have ever seen were unpaid. Some of the lesser magicians were paid huge sums of money.

There are many fine people in SAM and IBM who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, bricklayers, shopkeepers and others who are better magicians than some of these “professionals” will ever dream of being.

I eagerly await the new things that we are discovering. But in a sad way, I sometime miss the “good old days.”

Peace,
Parson
Here kitty, kitty,kitty. Smile
+++a posse ad esse+++
Neale - Bacon
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My biggest one is other magicians that look down on magicians who specialize in kid's magic.

I decided a long time ago that kids and families who I enjoyed the most and have worked very hard at putting together the best show I can. Yet when I say to other magicians that kids are my speciality, the reaction is "Oh yeah, I started with kids too" as if to be a real magician, you need to move on from there.

A simple question..how many of us were inspired to be magicians by watch a Children's Magician?
Neale Bacon

Ventriloquist and Magician

Burnaby BC
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