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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
This is just something I've been thinking about so I thought I'd share it with you all.
I feel that some magicians put to much emphasis on having to have the card selected. It's mostly magicians who care about that. I read about it all the time. Magicians asking of a card trick can be done with a signed card. Some go as far as saying that if it can't be done with a signed selection then they won't do it. It's not just card magic that this applies to either. Just about any time an object is borrowed (bill, card, etc...), vanished then found in some unusual place everyone seems to think the object has to be signed for the trick to work. That's not always true. I feel it's true less often then most seem to realize. The truth is most people couldn't care less if the card is signed or not. Most people won't even think of that unless you mention it. The idea of a "Free selection" is what matters most. Even if you are using a force you still want them to believe the card they selected was of their own free choice. They should believe that no one knows what card they pulled out unless they show it to someone. They're not going to want to show it to the magician. So if that card is found then they'll assume it's the same card because the magician had no way of knowing it in advanced and they also know that a deck of cards will only have one of that card. In my E-book on the card in bottle I go over a variety of methods to use in different situations. When I can perform the methods with a signed selection then I have them sign it. Other methods can't be done with a signed card so I don't have them sign it. No matter what method I use the reaction is always the same. Not once has someone said, "Do it again and let me sign the card this time." Or even make a statement that it's not the same card they selected. If you think about it, weather it's the same card or a duplicate doesn't make any difference because you (the magician) aren't supposed to know what card they selected in the first place. The same is true for other methods of "proving" the card is the actual card they selected. For example a corner switch. The corner switch is actually rarely needed. Try this sometimes. If you know a trick that uses a corner switch then perform that routine but don't switch corners. Hand the actual corner to a spectator. At the end the the trick just grab the corner back from the spectator and hold it to the rest of the card to show it matches. You'll know that the corner doesn't match but the way you display it suggests to the spectators that it matches. It's the thought of it matching that matters not the fact that it actually does. If you present this right they'll think it matches. I'm on no way saying that you should never have a card selected or use some method of identifying a card. Use it when it makes the trick better but just remember that it's not going to make the trick successful. It's just an extra subtle convincer. If the trick bombs without the signature it's not because it wasn't signed. It's because of the way it was presented. Any thoughts? Ron Jaxon |
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Amir Loyal user New York. 296 Posts |
Signing a card gives the spectator a sense of involvement.
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I agree... to an extent.
Some effects are stregthened by having the card signed, simply because it elliminates a solution... card to wallet for instance. But most tricks don't need it. People have mentioned on this site that they get the card signed for triumph. why? I do get them to sign it if I want them to keep it as a souvinier. Little richies stickman for instance.
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Jaxon Inner circle Kalamazoo, Mi. 2537 Posts |
That is a good point Amir. But there are many other ways to make them feel involved but like I said. You make a good point.
Ron Jaxon |
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dai_vernon Veteran user 321 Posts |
Look at Dai Vernons revelation tapes as he talks specifically about this. In the trick travellers that he did he asked them to name any four of a kind. Then did the effect without them being signed. After a while he was curious as to why it was not impressing anyone. He asked the staff as they had seen it done dozens of times already. They replied that he just had duplicates in his pockets. He then contested that they could name any four of a kind. This thought had never even crossed their mind as they forgot this small point, but remembered the effect. He said after he had the the cards signed the trick worked much better.
I understand your point that you are not supposed to know their card in the first place, but as an audience member they are trying to look for explanations. Having a card signed would elimanate this thought from their head. They may be impressed by the trick but if you ask them how they think you do it I guarantee that someone will say you have more than one of card as it is a logical answer. Don't even let them get that far. All the best, Eric |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:09, dai_vernon wrote: On the other hand, you could look at Wesley James's "Stop Fooling Us!" notes for a completely different perspective. -Jim
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Alex Linian Inner circle Peru 1277 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:02, Amir wrote: Then why not sign a piece of paper? My cards are of importance to me and I don't like to get ink on them
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Pekka Special user Finland 560 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:02, Amir wrote: How can showing a card trick for a person and even letting her select the card leave the uninvolved? I agree with Jaxx, there is usually no reason whatsoever to sign a card. There are excemptions to this rule as there always is. For example, if a person might forget the card or if the selected card has a continued theme throughout the evening, if the effect has to be 100% workable so you want to avoid any possibility of hecklers and the like, you are performing for magicians, you are building a trick to make it completely impossible, and if the card is in an impossible location. But on the latter one, as with many other cases with signing, the too perfect theory comes to mind. Why would the card be on a rooftop, or outside the window? I have very rarely had a person ask me if I have duplicate card or something like that, and the only times have been when performing to my friends who have seen quite a few tricks before. For those rare moments, I want to reserve signing. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Here's an example:
Card to wallet. It's so impossible that to a layman it would seem apparent that a duplicate must be used. That is not good. Signing the card, removes all doubt. Exception: Simon Lovell's card to wallet "Packed Wallet". It has a deck to wallet kicker so the signed card going to the wallet is completely unnecessary. My rule of thumb might be: if it helps make the effect more clear to the spectator, have it signed.
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T. Joseph O'Malley Inner circle Canada 1937 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:22, Alex Linian wrote: No offence, but bad call, from a showmanship point of view. Cards cost, what, less than 5 bucks a deck? If you're doing a show & the trick calls for a signature, you can give them a personalized souvenir after, & they'll remember the trick much more later on. Heck, I've given out Kennedy 1/2's as part of a performance (not that often but it's worth it). There are certain tricks that are so memorable that it's worth giving someone something to hold on to afterwards (with respect to cards, the first trick in the big Wesley James book comes to mind). If you're doing paid shows, and the cost of a new deck is a factor to you, you could request a new deck of Bicycles, Bees, whatever be provided for you as a requirement for the show - play it up, in fact. As an aside, I would also say that one of the strongest things a magician using cards can do is to hand out the deck for an audience member to keep after the show is done. Again, they'll remember you even more.
tjo'
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themartyr Regular user ca. 105 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:22, Alex Linian wrote: lol! good one! (sarcastic tone) |
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Count Zapik Loyal user UK 205 Posts |
It's possible to do a series of effects where the first couple of tricks use chosen cards that haven't been signed. Then as a convincer offer to do an effect with a signed card to seemingly disprove all notion of duplicates or other explanations. As if, you as the magician, suddenly become aware that maybe that is what the audience might be thinking. It adds a layer of complexity & makes the sequence harder to reconstruct perhaps.
I think signing cards is good. The spectator no longer has to remember the card they only have to recognise their name. But there a lots of good ways to do these things as Jaxon rightly suggests.
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I think, regarding what alex wrote, there are ways to address this.
First, I have asked people to sign cards before and they look at me in wonder, and ask for clarification "Im supposed to ruin your card?". Why not take addvantage of this? Ackwnoledge it DOES ruin the card (im not sure if you would want to use that line) but that you don't do it often and you feel that this peice of magic is worth it... it makes them feel special, and lets them know what they are about to see is special. not just don't dissapoint...
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Count Zapik Loyal user UK 205 Posts |
I agree Nordatrax.
Indeed finally going so far as to help them ruin the card by a final cumulative effect where you maybe tear but then restore the card or some similar effect from our magical repetoire seems to justify the whole premise of card abuse. Even a warp effect. The sequence is logical. Having said that my rule of thumb tends to be, nice tricks when the deck is new and extreme effects when its on its way out. I often do multiple spectators chosen cards to pocket with or without out signatures, it doesn't loose much actually either way it seems to me. It does ruin the working quality of the deck for honed sleights though. So that's one for later in the evening.
I feel as if I have been whisked here from another life....it may even have been my own!
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MagicAndBlackjack Elite user 442 Posts |
You all have some great ideas.
For me I just figure if it's a card to impossible location and can be signed, why not sign it? It doesn't take away from the magic, and it certainly rules out the fact that there is a dupe like Frank has mentioned. I feel that even if the spectator doesn't come out and say there's a duplicate, they still might have that thought in the back of their mind. |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
So, save the signed cards... then someday in the future if you work for the same person, force the same card on them and you already have a signed card in an impossible location. heheheheheh
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Amir Loyal user New York. 296 Posts |
One thing I don't understand, why can't you have a deck with signed cards in it? The decks I have with me usually have 8-15 sigs on all the cards before I replace it. Some magicians act as if it ruins the whole deck.
______________________________________________________ Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:05, Nordatrax wrote: Probably a beginner. _______________________________________________________ Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:05, Jaxon wrote: I don't sign for ALL card effects however. Usually just for Card to Wallet and ACR. I ALWAYS get asked if I have dupes in the deck when I don't get it signed. ________________________________________________________ Quote:
On 2005-11-03 15:22, Alex Linian wrote: Cards = Paper (basiacally.). |
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Ben Train Inner circle Erdnase never had 4639 Posts |
I think it looks tacky....
why not give them the card?
If you're reading this you're my favourite magician.
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts |
Quote:
One thing I don't understand, why can't you have a deck with signed cards in it? The decks I have with me usually have 8-15 sigs on all the cards before I replace it. Some magicians act as if it ruins the whole deck. Amir, I've always felt pretty strongly about this point, but Jamy Ian Swiss articulated it extremely well in his book, Shattering Illusions. Most spectators have never encountered a close-up magician before, let alone been asked to put their name on a playing card. This in itself makes it a significant event. I'm sure you've encountered spectators who were initially reluctant to do so. "What?" they say, "Won't that ruin your deck?" But if you spread the cards and they see fifteen other signatures in there, what was significant to them now becomes trite. You were doing something special for them, but it seems far less special when they see you've done it for every Tom, Dick and Harry who came before them, too. You've moved from the significant to the commonplace in an instant. Consequently, when cards are signed, you're usually much better off leaving them with the spectators. They may or may not keep them (most do, and some have brought cards back to me that were years old), but it's better than putting them back in the deck only to have the next spectator see them later. In addition, if you're working for people and you haven't introduced them to the concept of signing a card yet, but they see all these names on the cards, they have trouble focusing on the tricks you're doing. It's just too odd, and they wonder what the deal is. Jaxon, To your original question, I've found it best to never have a card signed more than once in the same set for the same audience. Some effects, though, demand that the card be signed, because they're significantly weaker if not. Ambitious Card, Card to Wallet, as mentioned, are two examples. Any card to impossible location suffers if the card isn't signed. But again, if a magician has cards signed repeatedly throughout a set, it just seems trite -- and starts to become rather bothersome to the spectators. Like any other element in our magic, we should exercise discretion. A little attentiont to routining will usually take care of something like this in quick fashion. Cheers, Lance |
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Amir Loyal user New York. 296 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-03 18:49, Lance Pierce wrote: You have a point. |
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