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Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-11-15 08:49, BroDavid wrote:

Exactly where are you leading them?



To better living through science!
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
BroDavid
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Fair enough. You believe you will be saved by science; man's analysis and interpreation of the world around him. You certainly are welcome to your beliefs.

But your response has triggered another questioning thought that I would like to pass along:

If you believe in science alone and do not have a Gospel to preach, then what is your agenda in participating so actively in a Gospel forum?

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-11-15 12:03, BroDavid wrote:

If you believe in science alone and do not have a Gospel to preach, then what is your agenda in participating so actively in a Gospel forum?

BroDavid


Gotta keep a watchful eye on the opposition.
Seriously though I participate in many of the forums I have no active interest in. As it has been pointed out before on this forum Gospel and Bizarre magic are pretty much one and the same and being an unwilling practitioner of Bizarre Magic (I actually prefer the term Bardic Magic myself) I sometimes find inspiration for presentations in these pages.
I've also been know from time to time to actually help out a fellow magi or two on these pages as well with the occasional plot point or presentation tip.
Just because I don't believe in the supernatural doesn't mean that I can't do the christian thing and help a fellow magi out from time to time.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
RevJohn
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"Gotta keep a watchful eye on the opposition."

That is exactly why I look in the mirror everyday!!!

(Paul: "I do the things I don't want to do, and find myself not doing what I want to do." Paraphrase.)

RevJohn
magicurt
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John,

You know where the real battle takes place. That is the first step.

Hey Payne you could read Romans (John's quote is from) and get an idea what the opposition is (or should) be up to.

Curt
tbaer
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There is too much emphasis on "I don't want to offend anyone". This is a cop out for not wanting to witness. Jesus had offended many people during his ministry. That wasn't his problem, nor is it our problem when we witness to someone and they become offended. Christ just asks us to be obedient and tells others about his saving grace.

The number one reason many of us don't witness (I'm not just talking presenting the gospel through magic) is because we don't want to offend anyone. We are afraid what they might think of us.

I had a friend who I never witnessed to because I was afraid he would be offended. I thought he would become saved some day through my christian walk. Not so. He had a sudden heart attack and died. The Lord convicted my heart, big time.

So fellow gospel magicians, don't ever stop sharing the salvation of Christ.
Chessmann
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This is all great discussion, but we might also want to think about getting back to RevJohn's original question ;^)
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Payne:

You said that you are leading others to "better living through science." I'm not sure what that means, from the non-theistic perspective; can you elaborate?

"Better," for example, is not a scientific category. Is hydration better than radiation? Or electrolysis better than oxidation? Is living better than dead?
The term "better" denotes a value judgment, as in more desirable, more highly prized, superiour in quality. Since the category "better" is unscientific, then living such a life requires something other than science.

Better living through Epicurianism? Hedonism? Pragmatism? Perhaps. These and numerous other "-isms" might provide some form of "better living." But ask for such a thing of science, and the only possible response is silence.
BroDavid
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Well said!

Here is what John had to about it (NKJV) with my notes inserted in parentheses.

John 12:42-43 Nevertheless even among the rulers (relating to us as we rule in our arena of influence) many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees (People who are more concerned with rules than a relationship..) they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue (Our comfort zones); for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

And another unfortunate reason, is that we are just too choosy about who we want to join us in heaven. Jonah ran, so he wouldn't have to tell the people in Nineveh what God said, because he knew God would forgive them, and he didn't want them to be forgiven!

Sadly, I sometimes find myself passing up an opportunity to share with some poor soul, because he just doesn't "measure up" to my way of thinking. Or because he just isn't "my kind". But God is His wonderful Grace and Mercy continues to convict me, as I met a man last night after I finished a tour of the Haven of Rest in downtown Akron, and I came out of the building at a different point than I had entered. It is a very large, multiple building facility and I had no idea how to get back to the lot where I had parked my car. A fellow walking near the door saw me looking around, and asked; "can I help you?" He is a resident of The Haven and is recovering from Alcohol and drug addictions. He gave me instructions on how to get to my car (It was a very cold night about 30 degrees with a strong wind biting your face) and yet he said, let me walk you over to the other lot so you don't have any trouble. The neighborhood is a rough one, but I wasn't worried. However I also have learned not to refuse help and steal a blessing from someone who would be blessed simply to help me. As we walked and talked about the Haven of Rest, he began to praise God so then we talked more and praised God more. I lamented it is sad that some of us are so hard to reach. I told him that I didn't come to Christ until I was 46 years old. He smiled broadly and said he was now 47, but last year, at 46, he had accepted Christ! He said that he had never knew he could have a personal relationship with God, until he came to the Haven. Interesting "coincidence" eh? NOT! God knows how to touch my heart.

This fellow might have been one of the people I had previously looked away from as I passed him sitting on a bench or a step somewhere. He might have been the seedy looking guy in the back of the church that every avoids... He might have gone to hell, if not for someone finally telling him the GOOD NEWS!

If not this (sharing the Good News), what?
If not now (starting at this very moment), when?
If not you (you are unique in your circle of influence), who?

Isaiah saw God, and was overwhelmed by his own sin, and fell down in worship finally responding to the question; Whom shall we send? Who will go for us? And he said; Here am I! SEND ME!

He is sending us all. Let us all Go!

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
leftytheclown
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Original question: Any effect that highlights the triumph of good over evil will point towards God. However, if I'm performing Gospel conjuring, then I will try and tell the Good News.

I am awed by the statement by Leland Thomas in response to Payne.
Quote:
"Better," for example, is not a scientific category. Is hydration better than radiation? Or electrolysis better than oxidation? Is living better than dead?
The term "better" denotes a value judgment, as in more desirable, more highly prized, superiour in quality. Since the category "better" is unscientific, then living such a life requires something other than science.


Not to pick on you Payne, but your doing the "Christian" thing for others is praiseworthy. Sadly, I note you do not believe in Christ or any higher power (ID or otherwise) and feel that science is the WAY. Although the "WAY" science is defined by naturalists is very limiting. Therefore, there can be no true good vs evil. There cannot be any true value judgements either. Does your "hanging" out here mean you are considering what is said here as truly "meaningful"?
Lefty (aka) Sterling Dare
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-11-18 11:03, Leland Stone wrote:
Hiya, Payne:

You said that you are leading others to "better living through science." I'm not sure what that means, from the non-theistic perspective; can you elaborate?



It's a popular catchphrase not to be taken literally.
I simply live a life in a physical universe which adheres to the rules of science and needs no supernatural explination.
I'm willing to admit that there are some things we do not know or fully understand at the moment rather than attribute some supernatural force.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Payne
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On 2005-11-18 13:19, leftytheclown wrote:

Does your "hanging" out here mean you are considering what is said here as truly "meaningful"?



Not so much hanging out as I am just passing through.
I enjoy philisophical arguments as much as the next guy. I enjoy hearing what people have to say about the concepts of good and evil and the other hypothetical moral absolutes.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-11-18 13:19, leftytheclown wrote:
Although the "WAY" science is defined by naturalists is very limiting. Therefore, there can be no true good vs evil. There cannot be any true value judgements either.


A specious argument. Sorry, to assert that people who don't believe in God cannot make value judgements is absurd. Actually, some of the most moral and upright people I know do not believe in God. Belief in God is not a requirement for having ethics and standards.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-11-18 11:03, Leland Stone wrote:
HSince the category "better" is unscientific, then living such a life requires something other than science.

Better living through Epicurianism? Hedonism? Pragmatism? Perhaps. These and numerous other "-isms" might provide some form of "better living." But ask for such a thing of science, and the only possible response is silence.


Another specious argument! Seems you're getting too wrapped up in your esotericity Leland Smile Better is a judgement. To claim that life cannot be better because of science is crazy talk. The medical advances alone on a daily basis make living life better, unless you think coughing up your internal organs like they did up to the 19th century was fun. And TIVO, life is definitely better because of TIVO and the Hughes satellites that beam great programming into it. And I must say the air has improved in the past 30 years in California, through science.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Leland Stone
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Hiya, Clifford:

Thanks for weighing in...good to see you outside the Bizarre forum Smile

When we discuss "scientific," we're talking, of course, about the realm of quantity, repeatability, observation, and hypothesis. In that realm, "better" is but a stranger and an alien.

You and I agree about the things you've mentioned as being "better," but that is not a scientific assessment. Nothing specious or esoteric about it -- it's simply not possible to scientifically ascertain what constitutes "better."

Science can tell us that clean air contains fewer particulates, or that it's more efficient at sustaining respiration; science can enable the formulation of synthetic insulin or antibiotics; science can allow us to broadcast television programming to the remotest areas of Earth. Whether any of these advances is "better" can't be answered scientifically, a truth that is easily seen if the question is asked in these more basic terms: Is vanilla ice cream "better" than chocolate cake? Science can't give an answer to value questions.

The same category error occurs when we try to ask science (or some other natural discipline) to answer a question about ethics and morality. You mentioned your view that a belief in God is not a requirement for values and ethics...but this is logically untenable. There is no naturalistic basis for morality, any more than there is a naturalistic standard for which flavour is best. Without a transcendent basis, your "standard" is simply a personal opinion elevated much higher than it can logically support itself.
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-11-19 03:56, Clifford the Red wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-11-18 13:19, leftytheclown wrote:
Although the "WAY" science is defined by naturalists is very limiting. Therefore, there can be no true good vs evil. There cannot be any true value judgements either.


A specious argument. Sorry, to assert that people who don't believe in God cannot make value judgements is absurd. Actually, some of the most moral and upright people I know do not believe in God. Belief in God is not a requirement for having ethics and standards.


Yes, people do make value judgements, and have ethics and standards. However, they are usually borrowing from the Christian worldview.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Clifford the Red
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Quote:
On 2005-11-19 17:39, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-11-19 03:56, Clifford the Red wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-11-18 13:19, leftytheclown wrote:
Although the "WAY" science is defined by naturalists is very limiting. Therefore, there can be no true good vs evil. There cannot be any true value judgements either.


A specious argument. Sorry, to assert that people who don't believe in God cannot make value judgements is absurd. Actually, some of the most moral and upright people I know do not believe in God. Belief in God is not a requirement for having ethics and standards.


Yes, people do make value judgements, and have ethics and standards. However, they are usually borrowing from the Christian worldview.


Fallacy of egocentrism.
"The universe is full of magical things, waiting for our wits to grow sharper." Eden Philpotts
Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-11-19 17:39, Chessmann wrote:

Yes, people do make value judgements, and have ethics and standards. However, they are usually borrowing from the Christian worldview.



Which were borrowed from the Jews who borrowed them from the Babylonians who no doubt borrowed them from some older culture who has been lost to the mists of time.
The Greeks had ethics and standards as did the Romans, Egyptians, Syrians and a whole host of pre Chrisitian cultures.
India and China too have a code of ethics even though their population isn't primarily Chrisitian.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Chessmann
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Quote:
Yes, people do make value judgements, and have ethics and standards. However, they are usually borrowing from the Christian worldview.

Fallacy of egocentrism.

No, sorry.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2005-11-19 20:22, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-11-19 17:39, Chessmann wrote:

Yes, people do make value judgements, and have ethics and standards. However, they are usually borrowing from the Christian worldview.


Which were borrowed from the Jews who borrowed them from the Babylonians who no doubt borrowed them from some older culture who has been lost to the mists of time.

The Greeks had ethics and standards as did the Romans, Egyptians, Syrians and a whole host of pre Chrisitian cultures.
India and China too have a code of ethics even though their population isn't primarily Chrisitian.



Yes, of course. I never said no one else had codes of ethics and standards, but they were different standards coming from a different source, and based on different reasoning.

And the Jewish standards were in place well before their Babylonian captivity.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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