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stine Regular user TN 152 Posts |
I always found it odd that the professor spent his career emphasizing naturalnes, doing sleights on the off beat and never displaying skill yet the wand spin seems to to do all of those things. Not only does it draw attention to your hands in a display of skill it does it at the exact moment a sleight is being accomplished. This one move just seems to be very out of character with the rest of his amazing innovations. What say you?
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bunkyhenry Special user NYC Metro 828 Posts |
It works very well.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Good eye, stine!
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
You can never trust Vernon on anything. That's why he's not well known!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Bob Johnston Inner circle Philadelphia, PA 1251 Posts |
It must be all in the way different people look at things.
I think the “sleight” or move is tucked in at the end of the spin in a very unlikely place, very much the “off-beat.” I went back and watched (and re-watched) Vernon do this on the Michael Ammar DVD, and all the things you see, I don’t see. Bob |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
I don't think it out of character at all. It certainly falls right in line with the big move covering the small. It is sort of odd because the action draws the heat but in this case the action draws confusion.
It does fit with his teachings, but your question was quite reasonable. Besides, as Pete Biro has said over and over, "There are no rules." |
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stine Regular user TN 152 Posts |
The move is obviously a flourish which, while pretty,is no different then doing a fancy cut everytime you reveal a card has changed on top of the pack.Some magicians prefer this style of magic which is fine and fun for audiences who enjoy displays of skill as being "magical moves".My main point was based on most of the professors other sleights which constantly try to trim the fat in order to bring the move down to its most natural, this move is the exact opposite. Maybe I should ask John Carney who was his student if Vernon ever gave a logical reason for this out of character moment.
Posted: Nov 18, 2005 8:01am ----------------------------------------- Rikbrooks said: [quote] ... but in this case the action draws confusion. [quote]One of Vernons ten commandments for magic was "confusion is not magic" or"magic is not confusion" I forgot which one, guess I got confused. |
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rikbrooks Inner circle Olive Branch, Mississippi 1317 Posts |
Ah, but we are talking about two different forms of confusion here. I don't think that the Professor was against the flustration moves. When I speak of confusion I mean confusion of the eye. There is a lot of spinning with bright ends of the wand AND the hand moving around the fist.
You can see a lot of this kind of confusion in the billiard ball manipulation magic of Romaine. The hands move back and forth rapidly but the magic is still simple. When Dai Vernon was speaking of "confusion is not magic" he was talking about overly complex tricks which happen rapid fire with one effect happening right after the other. Al Schneider's 'Source' is an example of that but it has the redeeming quality of being very short so the confusion doesn't reach that level to which the Professor objected. It's one of my favorite coin moves. 3 vanishes, 3 productions, one penetration - all in less than 10 seconds. Again though, as Pete Biro says, "There are no rules" |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
I believe in his second cups and balls video Michael Ammar puts some thought into this very subject. It seems as Mr. Vernon got older, he became more interested in the emphasis of naturalness and economy of movement. Assumably, he was flashier at first then worked to make his act less so later. Basically, he developed his thinking, which we all should try to do. I don't think we should make too much of an issue of subtle changes in the career and repertoire of a man who has done so much in such a long time.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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paisa23 Inner circle 7293 Posts |
I like the move. If it serves my purpose better still. But I do see what your saying.
June 22 2012 9:02 AM baby Usnavi was born!
http://twitter.com/paisa233 http://www.facebook.com/people/Wilder-J-Rua/505202382 http://www.myspace.com/wildrua |
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Gary Dayton Special user New Jersey 542 Posts |
Wasn't this Silent Mora's wand spin?
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Jim Wilder Special user Birmingham, AL 954 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-11-18 15:00, Gary Dayton wrote: Yes. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I do not find the gesture confusing or unnatural at all. It is a flourish, and the move is meant to answer the question of the spectator--"Is he really putting the ball in his left hand?"--which the previous two moves had raised.
Do you think that it is confusing to the argument? Are you confused about where the ball was supposed to be? Did you think the move of the wand makes it look like the performer is doing something sneaky with the ball gripped in his left fist? This is a misunderstanding of Vernon's meaning when he talks about naturalness and confusion. Neither of his rules is violated here. And Pete is wrong, or not finishing his sentence. "There are no rules...that can't be broken for good reason." There are a lot of rules, 24 in Our Magic, and none of them should ever be broken without reason. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I feel those who want to critisize the Professor should firt study EVERYTHING instead of nit picking little things he said and disecting them mercilisly.
There is a reason guys like Ricky Jay, Larry Jennings and many countless others were drawn to him. Mostly he was simply right. Watch whatever you can from him. Have you ever seen him do the spin during the cups and balls? Ever watch him do it with plastic cups and paper balls? Do research, then nit pick. Doing the move in the context of his cups and balls routine was as natural as a hicup. maybe in the wrong place it may be less natural, but not when Vernon did it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I cringe when I see or hear people saying "the big move covers the small one." It is only true up to a point. Sometimes the big move calls attention to the fact that you are "doing something." If you have to leap into the air to cover a pass, you need to work on your pass.
If there is a litany of auxiliary movements you go through every time you perform a certain sleight, you need to refine your technique. The wand spin, itself, does not cover the work. The work doesn't need to be covered. The natural drop of the hand the wand is in covers the work. The wand spin is a flourish that gives motivation to the drop. The wand is magical. You spin it and pass it around your hand. There is no confusion here, just motivation.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
Didn't Ramsay do the move (drop vanish) WITHOUT a wand?
Frankly, as I have often said (altho Whit hasn't been there when I say it) "Whatever works." TRY THIS. Place your hand flat on the table palm up. Place a ball into hand. Close hand around ball. Get sledge hammer (short handled) and raise above hand and as you smash it down jerk your hand out of the way and whack the table. When the moment is right either topit or lap the ball. NOT SILENT MORA BASED.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Larry Davidson Inner circle Boynton Beach, FL 5270 Posts |
That sounds Danny Sylvester based.
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
I just tried it. Guess I should have pulled my hand away quicker.... ouch.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I do the drop without the wand spin. I vanish key limes and sometimes the wand actually gets in the way.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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stine Regular user TN 152 Posts |
For the record I am not in any way disparaging Vernons contribution to magic. There is probably no new close-up that isn't using one of his ideas. I simply wanted to ask the question if any other magi's felt that this flourish seemed out of place and certainly not pure. The magic wand in and of itself is intriguing to the layman but once you spin it you have startled the spectator from a suspension of disbelief I.E. the wand has magical properties to "Oh yeah, this guy is really good at sleight of hand" A compliment sure, and honorable from the laymans standpoint but definitly not natural in the sense that "magic" is happening there is no skill involved. that's what pure astonishment was supposed to accomplish because the layman never suspects skill if none is demonstrated.
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