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Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2005-11-29 13:20, tommy wrote:
Vandy

He did not, by any chance, say she was name Minnie did he.

Now here's the story bout Minnie the Moocher
She was a lowdown hoochie coocher
She was the roughest and the toughest frail
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale

Hidee-Hidee-Hidee-hey
Hedee-Hedee-He
Hodee-Hodee-ho

The truth often gets in the way of a good story. Smile


Are you calling my man a liar? LOL.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-18 23:24, KidCrenshaw wrote:
I'm simply curious about the forum, and you guys' views on magicians doing "gambling" sleight of hand, or simply gambling routines in general.

Card shark performance material to me IS a show of skill. To be able to show the audience what a bottom deal is. Then demonstrate the bottom deal or the second deal and then be able to fool the audience with the bottom deal or the second deal. Or at least make them feel that you could do these moves in a game to "get the money" IS A SKILL.

It is both a skill of technical ability but also a skill of the way it is presented to the public. One of the things that I have learned from many of the masters like Jack Pyle is that the audience does not want to see a lesson in card shark cheating they want to be entertained.

Years ago Jack Pyle’s son (Hypnotist John Ivan Palmer) told me that Jack Pyle spent a lot of money on a act that was how card sharks cheat. He got trick dice, hold outs, and spent a lot of money on a whole bunch of stuff. He booked it and the act was a flop. Why? Because an audience wants to be entertained!

So Jack Pyle changed the act to doing just card tricks and poker and bridge deals letting several audience members be his partners and dealt himself and his partners the winning hands. This act caught on because the audience was now in on it and not being lectured to. The audience became part of the act and the guy that the card shark dealt the hands to. Instead of being the losers they became the winners and admired the skill of Jack Pyle the guy that dealt the hands.

The thing is that the older a magician gets the easier it is to get away with doing the card shark material as well as other magic. Jack looked like a retired gambler or a retired card player. People have a hard time in believing that a person that is not old enough to get into a casino is an expert on card shark methods. Age is an advantage when performing this kind of material!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
KidCrenshaw
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Glen, I understand what you mean for the most part.

But I've got to be honest, I've been doing a simple 6 minute routine for a few months now demonstrating cheating techniques. Granted, this is always preceeded by magic, but it has always been well-received.

I do know that it can be boring watching nothing but a bland personality "show-off."

*cough* Darwin Ortiz *cough*

I say that, but speaking striclty from an entertaining p.o.v. Only because I am interested in the techniques does the guy fry me everytime and make me giggle like a schoolgirl.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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Vandy I would not dare. It's that Minnie the Moocher I don't trust she told me she was the girl!

Fernando Keops does put a cheating show across well on his DVD, a very charming guy and a cool dealer. I am just trying work out how to put his estimation tip to use in holdem: Estimate 8 and trasfer the break to the heel peek with one hand maybe but maybe not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
halcon
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It always amazes me how cheating threads go on for so long. maybe the mods should consider adding another header on the forums for those interested in this kind of stuff.

Halcon
bishthemagish
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Good for you KidCrenshaw... The thing that I have found interesting is that the real cheating methods can get a big ho-hum out of an audience. The reason I feel is that the lay audience see movies like the sting and shade. And think that a card shark can take a deck, shuffle it and then deal out five hands and everyone get something.

As we know it takes just as much skill to cull a hand as it takes to bottom deal a hand or stack a hand.

That is why I like the punch deal. It can bring a demonstration to the level of what a lay audience EXPECTS and THINKS a card shark can do. Like what they see in the movies. I will be producing a punch deal DVD in about two weeks as I feel that magicians should be able to look like they can do what the lay audience see's the movie card sharks do. And the punch deal can help with that as far as in a demonstration of card shark material.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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rawdawg
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KidCrenshaw,

Two weeks ago, I was in a home game. I was not invited nor did I know the host of the game. One of my friends who was in the game called me and said that maybe I'd want to roll by. I walked right into the house, I even opened the door myself. There was a tournament going on inside with approximated 75 players. They hired a Bicycle Club Poker dealer to run the game for the night. There were two cash game tables going on. One of them had approximately 10 large in play. I bought in at the smaller one. Not one person had bothered to ask me my identity. I held my own and eventually made my way to the big cash game. The girl seated next to me was a regular 500 NLHE player from the Bike. The guy across from me was a 200/400 HE player from Commerce. Rounding out the table were business owners, lawyers, a pit crew operator and the Host.

Now, I'm fairly proficient at shuffling. I deal for a gambling party service on occasion and have mustered up some nimble fingers. It seems that every game I've played in, I eventually end up doing all the dealing. More than likely, it is because I can move the game along and get more hands in than anyone else. This night was no exception.

Sometime during the course of the evening, one of the girls hanging around the table mentioned the movie "Shade". She said they did some amazing things in that movie. My friend, who sat to the right of me, piped out that I could do amazing things just like the movie.

The Game stopped.

Not for what you are probably thinking but because everyone wanted to see some "stuff". I told them I would demo them some things but that I would not expose any moves. I also mentioned to the girl that I had met and or was familiar with some of the technical advisors on the movie mentioned. That revelation failed to score me her number, however...

I executed some shuffle controls, some card controls, some hops, hold-outs and seconds. I did not explain what I was doing. As far as they could see, either I or the designated seat would keep getting the Ace of Spades. They were impressed for sure, but probably more perplexed since everything conformed to the usual procedure of the current game. There was basically nothing "cool" to see. I decided to cheat and pull a rabbit out of the magician's bag of tricks. I asked if they were familiar with palming cards. They all nodded in the affirmative. I flipped over the top card and proceeded to "palm" the card using the Erdnase/Houdini color change. I moved my hand about in the general motions one does at the table. I did not blatantly show my palm empty as that would have defeated the purpose of the demo. I replaced the "card" back on top of the deck using the aforementioned sleight.

Man, did those people react! I thought I was a Rock Star for a moment.

Anyway, the most amazing thing happened next.

The Host said, "Okay, back to the game. Shuffle and deal." With several thousands on the table, I was allowed to continue dealing. No heat, nothing. Just like that.

It wasn't the first time nor do I believe the last time it will happen. There is a plethora of home games in the West Coast and nearly every game I've played in has been lax. Interestingly enough, my friend also did not know anyone at the game. But we are now on the e-mail list for future games. It turns out this particular game was a time killing game. The usual game has deeper money.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this answers your original question or not. I just wanted to let everyone on this board know that I know some people from the "Shade" movie as it makes me feel bigger than I really am.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
KidCrenshaw
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Quote:
On 2005-11-29 21:04, halcon wrote:
It always amazes me how cheating threads go on for so long. maybe the mods should consider adding another header on the forums for those interested in this kind of stuff.

Halcon


Are we taking up valuble "Pick A Card" space?

In truth, I would love to see it.

By the way, I dig the story. I guess it's a bit of hit and miss. Maybe I've been lucky with some brainless twits who laugh at chewed bubblegum, who knows.

Glen, I would be very interested to check out your DVD. Should I just check your website for updates?
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2005-11-29 23:24, rawdawg wrote:


It wasn't the first time nor do I believe the last time it will happen. There is a plethora of home games in the West Coast and nearly every game I've played in has been lax. Interestingly enough, my friend also did not know anyone at the game. But we are now on the e-mail list for future games. It turns out this particular game was a time killing game. The usual game has deeper money.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this answers your original question or not. I just wanted to let everyone on this board know that I know some people from the "Shade" movie as it makes me feel bigger than I really am.


Hey I'll be a few hours away from ya in 2 months. Need to get me in on this one. Smile
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Unknown419
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Rawdawg that was a very interesting story even though it was a kind of scary to me. Why? Your friend not knowingly could have gotten you hurt by making that statement especially if you were in my environment or if there was a sore loser at that table.

I know that we play in different environments so yours wouldn't be as dangerous as mine. Yes, I've played in your environment and boy-oh-boy would I have love to have stayed in it. The money is so much more then where I'm presently am and you don't, most of the time have a problem leaving with it.

Even though showing off does make us get a big head and feel good, as a friend I would advise you not to keep demonstrating your skills because if someone see you at another game and if you're winning, they are going to assume that you've cheated in order to win and there is no way that you can prove that you didn't.

One more thing

Readers Doc John and Rawdawg's story shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating, finger flashing, palming, second dealing etc. and when they do catch us, we can easily say some sucker stuff like Doc John's friend said which sounds so logical that it's not even questioned. These are the people we are trying to trim (cheat) not you here magicians who know what to look for.

I hope that this has been of some help to someone.

P.S. Mook have we ever met and if so where?

Doc
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 00:14, KidCrenshaw wrote:
Glen, I would be very interested to check out your DVD. Should I just check your website for updates?

Check my web site and my blogs, this will be a limited number DVD as I feel it is my best card work on a side of magic that there really isn't that much written on. I like the punch deal a lot but you should also read books like Marlo in Spades, the punch letters, Phantom of the card table and Phantoms of the card table because there is useful info in those classic books about the punch.
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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 05:38, Unknown419 wrote:

Reading Doc John and Rawdawg's story shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating, finger flashing, palming, second dealing etc. and when they do catch us, we can easily say some sucker stuff like Doc John's friend said which sounds so logical that it's not even questioned.

These are the people we are trying to trim (cheat) not you here magicians who know what to look for.

Doc


Precisely. It may sound silly what Docs buddy said. But I really believe it's the truth. First of all, Doc Johns credentials are impeccable. There is no doubt he was a pro dealer and crossroader, even had to sit a while for his deeds. Also a good magician who later went on to run a magic shop. If he says it, I believe him.

But beyond that, most magicians are "half smart" at best. (I'm about 1/4 smart). Most people that play recreationaly aren't even half smart. I doubt this woman really knew what was going on, but when she said "your taking the second card" she had a feeling "something" was going on. Doc's friends reply was perfect, because it's one of those things that kind of flies over your head while at the same time offering a bit of "logic". (one might say to themselves "that's true, what good would it do for him to take the second card?). And it's also the kind of thing that can the make rest of the table turn to the accuser and say "yeah, now be quiet and lets play". Because most people have no clue about a second deal. They just don't.

You have to know who you are playing with. If she said "hey, you just pulled a deuce!!" his blood may have run cold for a second. But he knew the table. So he just floated a line of BS that shut the whole notion down.

Don't underestimate em, but don't over estimate them either. Like Doc(419) says: "it shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating." It's true, most people don't know that much.

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 12:52, Vandy Grift wrote:
Don't underestimate em, but don't over estimate them either. Like Doc(419) says: "it shows you how much people/gamblers are suckers, how much they don't know about cheating." It's true, most people don't know that much.

Vandy

I do not consider card sharks, advantage players or a card cheat a gambler. Because they have an advantage over many of the other players. I also do not consider the occasional player a gambler. I consider a gambler as one that gambles on games of chance.

I also feel that many people do not know that much about card cheating. But because card playing with Texas holdem has become very popular. The card cheating demonstration of the magician has taken on a new popularity as well.

I also feel that like said above that some people don't know that much about card cheating. This is true of magic as well. But we live in an age that people can learn and even though many people do not know that much about card cheating or magic - I feel you have to look out for - and respect the people that do!

Just some thoughts.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Vandy Grift
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Hey Glen,

I agree for the most part. Sometimes things get confused when threads mix gambling and cheating and magic all up into one big ball. They are three completely different things.

I consider a cheater a cheater. and I consider anyone who plays games of chance for money,gamblers. Even if they only play occasionally. Even if they only play bingo.

I agree that you must watch out for the person with knowledge and the "half smart" gees. That goes for magic or cheating. I think what rawdawg did was crazy. I would never suggest that to anyone. But at the same time, according to him, the people that he was playing with continued to put money on the table. Oy Vay!!

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
bishthemagish
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Hi Vandy

I hope you are doing well and have a great Christmas season. I agree that the word gambler can cover a lot - not just card games and include bingo and the lottery.

One of the funny things I saw on Simon's tape about card cheating was his comments when he would talk about a move before he explained it that "It was highly prized by gamblers".

I would think "highly prized by a card cheat or a card shark".

Or what Mickey McDoogle once said "All strangers are not card cheats but every card cheat is a stranger".

That is a good one to.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Vandy Grift
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Thanks Glen, Hope you have a great Christmas and New Year as well. I like the McDougal quote. I hadn't heard that one.

This thread has taken some twists and turns but it's been a really fun one.

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
tommy
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Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

The procedure:

1. Scramble* the deck and call for antes or blinds

2. Shuffle, box*, shuffle shuffle (or shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, depending on the cardroom).

3. Position the cut card a few inches in front of the deck and release the deck. If you’re dealing a stud game, gather the antes before you cut the deck.

4. Cut the cards and pick up the deck. Square the deck both before you pick it up and afterwards in the proper manner.

5. Deal the cards.


* Box is a term meaning a running cut or as I call it a strip cut.
* Scramble means a Wash Shuffle, some call it a Chemi Shuffle.
The above is the casino industry standard. I got it from a dealer site and I think it is accurate for dealing poker in high stakes private games and casino games the world over from what I have seen.

http://www.dicedealer.com/poker_dealer_2.htm

In all the DVDs and books I have I don’t think I have seen it done.

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
KidCrenshaw
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Are you speaking of a simple bottom or top stock retention using box shuffles and running cuts, then presumably dealing yourself the aces?

I would think there is extreme simplicity in that series of motions. In fact, I practice that daily for my base deal.

Maybe I'm missing something...
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tommy
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Can you do it and show us sticking strictly to the above casino procedure?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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Hey Tommy Happy Christmas.

I am not sure what casino procedure is when it comes to card games as I have never put a bet down in a casino and have only played cards in the home/private games. I wonder if the casino procedure would be a little different depending on the casino and the country the casino is in?
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