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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Gambling Sleight Of Hand (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KidCrenshaw
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Okay, since I'm more than likely the most ignorant in the thread on the subject...

Maybe I could bother you guys for some references to what you believe to be definitive card work?

Since I'm just breaking into the actual true gambling aspect, I have little information and less material. What I do have consists of Erdnase, Annotated Erdnase, Buckley's Card Control, and a myriad of Nash material. I have Unreal Work on the way, and I'm tracking down some copies of Fortes GPS series. As soon as Steves book becomes available, I amn definitely making that purchase.

I'm guessing Piacente would be another good source? Also, Octobers Genii reviewed Fernando Keops' DVD set, commenting that for those seeking actual card worki principles would be best suited with just volume 1.

Anyone care to share some insight and oipinon?

EDIT: I just read Tommy's last post, and I too, in my infinite cheating wisdom, find little feasible use of dealing seconds without an ally to your left.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
Yiannis
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Tommy,

Walter Scott said it best : -"No matter how many things you can do at the card table, they're easy to see if you're looking for them".

In my opinion, the only false deal that creates a perfect illusion when pefrormed is Wesley James second deal (as described in his book 'Enchantments') and the Artanis bottom deal as performed by Dai Vernon (in the 'Revelations' series).
Andrei
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Tommy - "Doc" has said repeatedly that he deals punch.

Andrei
Yiannis
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Andrei,

Doc also said, that false dealing is absolete to him anymore. "Cold deck" is what gets the money in one big hit.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 20:03, Dannydoyle wrote:
Glen if you are SO adverse to a debate and discussion might I suggest you simply LECTURE instead of jumping in on a topic that is being debated and stating an opinion and taking a side in the debate.


Danny I thought the Café and other forums was to share information. Magicians helping magicians. This sharing of information is very useful. I have learned many things here in the Café from people like Tommy, Paul Chosse, Whit Hayden, Bill Palmer, Pete Biro, Paul H, Doc and others that are so many and in fact to many to list.

This is my personal point of view - I feel what is important is to share information I am tired of getting into little arguments over little points about who is right about something. Being right about something I feel isn't as important as the sharing because I feel no one is THE expert because we all have our point of view and different things work for each of us.

We are different and have different ways of getting the job done. That I feel is what makes magic so interesting.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Andrei
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Yiannis - yeah, and my point was that he said the punch was workable for him at one stage, which I assume was more than just a couple of games.

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Yiannis
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Andrei,

indeed that was the case. He also mentioned that the weak angle of his type of second dealing was that from behind the dealer. I.e looking directly on top of the deck. Doc was using Walter Scott's method for the punch.
Andrei
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Yiannis - I regretfully say that I have not yet had a chance to get my hands on the Walter Scott book, so unfortunately I don't know how that particular second is accomplished or how it looks (slower, faster, etc).

Andrei
Dannydoyle
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Jason, I just figured out the problem and YOU stated it earlier. We are speaking of apples and oranges....as if they were apples and apples.

You are right and I step back and appologise.......SERIOUSLY.....


Glen this goes for you too if your still reading..(although NOT about the debate point I made)

I am speaking ONLY of advantage players. You guys are speaking of guys who make serious card moves regularly. Mechanics.

Two schools of thought.......both entirley correct for a given situation. Each better and worse in a given situation....

I have LITTLE TO NO experience with the mechanics, as in the places I play and at the stakes played it would get you hurt. I do understand this is situationally spacific to me and those crappy seedy back room games.

I still know that my position of a mechanic trying to crack the game would get him seriously hurt.

BUT to say it is a myth that advantage players tend to move slowly and once or twice an hour or night for big stakes is also wrong. Vernon aside it is the way they work. I never knew Vernon was a gambling expert till this thread to tell the truth, and am not sure he even was.

What I am trying to do is follow Glens lead here and take some heat out of the thread, by stopping one of its sourses......ME LOL. (take THAT Glen, I am following you!!)

So I am left with 2 points of what I believe are absolute fact. ( I could be wrong though)

1) the more money involved and the more attatched those people are to their money, the tougher it is to get by with ANY sort of cheating.

2) in games that are not sanctioned by the state, (back rooms of bars and pool halls) you can regularly find higher stakes than the standard 30 60 which casinos call high stakes. These games not sanctioned though there are NO cameras are pretty tough circumstances to get by with cheating. Not friendly home games but middle stakes games with rough company. I have never seen anyone get dead, but have seen many get hurt with half hearted mechanic moves.

I now have a serious question if Jason will indulge me...

The best mechanic I ever saw was actually self taught. He simply tried to duplicate the moves and make the cheating move look like the real move. Truley the goal of all moves I guess. Is this a usefull field of endevor, or does it take up too much time with the myriad of info in print.

With so much in print though you do have to sift through some coal to find diamonds. Tommy your input needless to say would be usefull here too!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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If your starving you might risk it for a biscuit.

Posted: Nov 21, 2005 2:33pm
I think card cheating is swamped by myth Danny. I suggest you use your own experience and make a judgment based on that alone. My experience leads me to agree with you as it happens.

Note the words of the master:

“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If terrific denunciation of erstwhile associates, and a diatribe on the awful consequences of gambling are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table.”

-Erdnase-
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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Yes, and I think this site and indeed this thread is rife with the kind of things "Erdnase" was speaking about.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
iamslow
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Or a Cheeseburger...lol
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
Mr. Z
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This thread is swamped by myth and BS.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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How do you know?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Could you be more spacific about the myth and bs? I am curious.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bishthemagish
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The funny thing about magic and the card shark side of it is that magicians are known to tell myth if it helps their reputation. I have met a lot of magicians that say that they have advantage played in a game and by the way they hold the deck and other clues I often feel that they are giving me a line of bull.

Although I have met magicians that were very good with a deck and I feel that they could cheat in a game if they wanted to.

Take Jack Pyle for instance. He would lead his audience to believe that he could cheat in a game if he wanted to. I asked him at one time if he had ever advantage played and I could never get an answer out of him.

But there was a time that I wrote about in another thread after finishing a show with Jack Pyle - My Father - Billy Bishop and several bookers of shows and we all sat down and played some hands of draw poker. Please understand this was a safe game where everyone was close friends and the agents or bookers were people that booked my Dad and Jack Pyle for 15 years or more. One of the agents was Paul Marr who used to give the Bishop kids Christmas gifts every year. It was a close group.

Well my Dad thought it would be a good lesson to me if I were to sit in with them for a few hands and lose 20 bucks. So I sat in and the first hand I got was with Jack Pyle dealing and I got four Jacks. Then Jack folded and winked at me.

So I decided since there was so much clowning around to try out my second deal and then my center deal. Both flew past them. The center deal I did later on and I center dealt 3 of a kind to my Dad.

Later at the magic shop I asked my Dad if he liked my center deal. He said he did not see it and I told him I center dealt him three of a kind in that clown around poker game. He fell on the floor laughing and called Jack Pyle on the phone to tell him about his twenty two year old card shark son. Jack thought it was funny to because he was the one that showed me how to center deal.

By the way this was a SAFE GAME and I have played cards but never done something like this in anything but a safe game.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Mr. Z
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You guys are only doing a disservice to yourselves with this "the best mechanic I know" nonsense.

Posted: Nov 21, 2005 6:15pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:41, tommy wrote:
Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps .
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so.

Oh please.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Paul Chosse
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Why spend all this time talking when you could be cheating? Think of the money you're losing...

Best,PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
tommy
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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 13:53, tommy wrote:
I am putting you on Kid and Jason. Just trying to get something out of him.


Tommy


Try to keep your eyes open Z , I appreciate it is tiresome.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Yiannis
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Glen,

this is the ideal environment for a cheat. Make the other players feel safe and never to be suspected.

As it goes, if you don't watch out for it you won't see it coming.
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