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Starry
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When I was in college, I had a group of magician friends who would play what we called "cheater's poker." In it we would all knowingly cheat in whatever game the dealer called. The rule was that if you caught someone cheating they had to fold their hand and turn in any extra cards. The person declaring the cheat had to say exactly how the other person cheated and the cheater had to admit it when the person who caught them was correct. So basically we had some honest cheating going on.

It was a blast. The funny thing was that more often than not, the cheaters succeeded. The only real problem with the game was that too many cards were often missing from the deck to deal a hand and everyone had to turn in their held back cards. Of course after a while it became obvious that someone had brought their own extras when two people held the same cards.

You should try it sometime. You'll be surprised what you can get away with even when playing against magicians.
Ace Starry - Author or THE MAGIC LIFE - A NOVEL PHILOSOPHY
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Dannydoyle
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Mr.Z you seem unwilling to elaborate here. Please share.
Danny Doyle
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tommy
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If an assertion is made that this or that artifice is employed at the table let the asserter make an attempt to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If not these astounding disclosures and extraordinary revelations can be calmly dismissed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:41, tommy wrote:
Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps . Smile
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so. Smile

I remember you telling me in another thread that you were gonna get tables with automatic dealers... I thought you were dellusional then, but after reading your recent posts, I think its been confirmed....lol don't forget to take your pills...
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
JasonEngland
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Danny,

A few things need to be straightened out here.

First of all, the concept of an ‘advantage player’ has evolved over the past 140+ years.

In 1865, a book was published anonymously called How Gamblers Win or Secrets of Advantage Play. In this book, the terms ‘advantage play’ and ‘advantage player’ were synonymous with cheating and cheaters.

In 1902, Erdnase utilized this same meaning of the term ‘advantage play.’ It was still synonymous with cheating and cheaters.

But somewhere in the past 100 years or so the term has evolved. These days there is a distinction between an advantage player and a cheater.

Under the commonly accepted modern definition, a cheater is someone who has broken a law, rule or standard of the game in an attempt to derive an edge.

An advantage player is someone who is attempting to derive an edge without breaking a law, rule or standard of the game.

For instance, switching cards, stacking the deck, dealing any card other than the top card, using marked cards, and peeking would all be considered ‘cheating’ by any reasonable definition of the word in most locales.

But card counting, shuffle-tracking, playing dealer tells, and playing naturally occurring warps in the game of blackjack are all considered ‘advantage playing’ in today’s parlance. There is no cheating going on, because you aren’t manipulating any of the items or information available to the players, you’re just paying attention to it better than anyone else.

In the game of roulette, adding to your bet after the ball has dropped would be considered cheating. But locating and betting into a wheel with a noticable bias would be considered advantage play.

In the world of slot machines, stringing a machine (using a coin on a string), trying to drill into a machine manipulate the reels on older machines, or attempting to bypass the coin counting mechanisms would all be considered cheating. But taking a team of players, locking up a bank of progressive machines and playing with a memorized perfect strategy for that particular machine type until the jackpot was won would be considered advantage play. There is no actual law or rule being broken (though the casino may not like it).

Though there can be exceptions to this guideline, the difference often comes down to manipulating items or information vs simply paying attention to the items or information.

So, it will obviously be useful to know what you mean when you say the advantage players you know only “move” once or twice in an evening. Are you using the old definition of the term (cheater) or the modern definition of the term (non-cheater)?

If you’re using the modern definition, then I’d say that most advantage players don’t “move” at all! Most of the time, their gains come from exploiting information, not from manipulating it. Again, I concede there can be some exceptions.

But if you’re using the older definition of the term, then we’re talking about the same types of people i.e. cheaters. These are the guys that (in a poker game) would be running up cards for themselves or a partner, bottom dealing cards to themselves or a partner, peeking or flashing, or using marked cards (whether pre-marked or marked during play). I would of course also place collusion, cold-decking, dealing known hole-cards, top-hand, the double-discard, and classic moves like the brush and the spread squarely in the ‘cheating’ category.

And as I’ve said before, modern cheaters can’t be pigeonholed into simple categories. Some of them are masters of several different cheating moves, some specialize in only one. Some of them are capable of beating you on the square if the opportunity presents itself, some are not. Some of them move once or twice in an evening, some start moving from the minute they sit down. Some are rough and use techniques that would make you cringe, and others (a very few) are so smooth you could burn them all day and not catch a thing.

It is dangerous (read: ususally wrong) to try and make absolute statements like: “Good cheaters only move once or twice an evening” on a subject as vast and varied as modern cheating.

What definition of the term are you using?

Point two: You made a statement earlier that needs some clarification. You said that you felt it was “absolute fact” that the more money and more attached people were to it, the more difficult it was to get by with any cheating.

My take on that is that it’s an absolute “rule of thumb.” Maybe you and I have differing opinions on the utility of precision in writing and speaking. I try and limit exaggeration and fuzzy statements, unless it’s clear (or I make it clear) that I’m generalizing. If I make a statement that has exceptions, I usually try and point out those exceptions, or at least make it clear that there are/can be exceptions.

The truth is, while more money often means more experienced players (and therefore more difficult to cheat), that isn’t always the case. There are plenty of guys who play big money poker in the world, that could still be taken by a mechanic that is only halfway decent. By the same token, I don’t play big money poker (I’ve seen maybe $200 – 400 pots), but my experience with a wide variety of cheating moves means you’re not likely to beat me with a sledgehammer move like the bottom deal or a muck. Of course, I remain susceptible to any number of more subtle moves, and would not be immune to a top-notch mechanic if he picked his spots properly.

So, my take on it is experience and knowledge (at any level) is your best bet against being cheated. Even then it isn’t a guarantee. But big money, in and of itself, doesn’t mean you have a game that isn’t capable of falling victim to a good cheat.

You also asked whether or not being a self-taught mechanic is a good way to go. My answer is that it probably doesn’t matter much how you arrive at competence, as long as you get there. Sure, you may advance a little faster by watching others, or by reading books, but you may not be any better at it in the long run. There’s really no way to tell without being given specifics. For things like bottom dealing, second dealing, mucks, and false-shuffles, I definitely think you can speed up the process by reading and watching others. But for things like peek work, marking cards during play, and running up hands, there isn’t a whole heck of a lot of literature to study in the first place. What little there is often contains only bare-bones descriptions. My guess is that the best mechanics have read and studied, but it isn’t necessary to read and study to become one of the best mechanics. It’s useful but not required.

Tommy,

I believe that Steve mentions that he’s only seen/heard of the punch being dealt for information in poker. That is a more subtle use of the concept than a punch/second deal combo. My guess is that there are plenty of softer games where cheaters have used the punch/second, but those guys probably aren’t reporting their progress to guys like Steve. Incidentally, if you put cohorts on either side of you, you distance the other players (who aren’t in on it) from the top of the deck, and disrupt their sight-lines. This would have the effect of making the deuces much easier to pull off. If the punch/second was the tool you made me use, this is how I’d use it.

Hope this helps guys.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Yiannis
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Wow!
halcon
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I agree with Jason on this.

Danny let me share a story with you. I was working a shoot with some NHL players. these are people that have some big money. I walked to the backroom where they were holding out waiting for their turn on the set. what lay before me was a full blown game in progress. not only were they playing thousand dollar or more hands they were also recounting their flight over from the East Coast. One player had lost 20 large in a single hand. I continued to watch for a while and swear that between the four players they must have played about 10 grand worth in the course of 15 minutes. this game was so soft you could have cold decked them with a different colored deck and they wouldn't have noticed.

when it comes to money it's all relative. five thousand dollars may be a lot of money to us but to people with a lot of money it may be meaningless.

halcon
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-22 07:10, Yiannis wrote:
Glen,

this is the ideal environment for a cheat. Make the other players feel safe and never to be suspected.

As it goes, if you don't watch out for it you won't see it coming.


I agree with that.

I would just like to add a few things that I have learned from a friend of the family that in this person's opinion that some cheats work in teams. The reason is that one guy will cull the hand and the other will stack the hand or bottom deal the hand.

Then perhaps use the crimp to blow past the cut.

Also another school of thought to this is that the right card dealt at the right time can make a card shark a thousand dollars just as a wrong card dealt to someone else at the right time can save them a thousand dollars.

Another point of view about cheating at cards. Sometimes it is GETTING the hand. But it could also be making sure that OTHERS in the game DO NOT get the hand!

Just some thoughts... And a use for the peak and the second or bottom.
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Dannydoyle
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Jason, thank you. and let me say YOUR RIGHT. My percision in writing may (read as IS NOT) not be what it should be!!!!

Thank you for your civil acceptance of this faililng. I will work harder to employ more direct language in the future.

Thank you also for your honest and complete answers. They are what I was looking for.

Let me explain. I personally count cards in Blackjack. You are correct that makes ME an advantage player! not a cheat.

When I speak of advantage players I did mean cheats I guess. BUT more cheats who move less for bigger pots I guess. I am sorry if I am being less than concise here. People who took shots at bigger pots as opposed to grinding away a small bit at a time. Less work meant less chance of exposure.

I hope I have cleared up some of the problem sentences I used! LOL.

Incidently I don't think it is the level of money used that stops the cheating. It is the fact that the guys losing it are quite willing to hurt you badly if your caught. I have been in many big money games that were quite soft. They involved people who were gambling lots of money, BUT within their means.

The only exposure I have to "cold decking" (which my understanding is ringing in a set deck in the middle of the night for one big hit) is as follows.

When the deck was intorduced nobody saw it. Heck I was able to reconstruct the moment and realised I was WATCHING and didn't even see it. I just had knowlege of who had done it and backtracked. Kind of like people who saw the 6th sense and had heard about the end and said "yea I saw it comming anyway". That was me reconstructing when this happened. IN THE MOMENT it passed right by me and everyone else at the table.

Problem was that several of the cards had been game worn. By this I mean smudges, or small lines on them, marks to tell the cards. Usually when the deck gets too many of these we simply switch them for a new one. Well when the wear marks were gone and suddenly he has a huge hand it was a pretty simple matter to find out who did it. A first year detective school student could piece it together. A simple search followed by a heck of a beating. it was scary.

That is what I believe keeps the game a little safer actually. I could be WAY wrong here mind you.

Your right for sure. Using absolutes is generally wrong in anything except gravity and such!

Thanks for your time.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
JasonEngland
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Danny,

What count do you use?

I’ve been interested in blackjack and blackjack counting systems for some years now.

I’d also be curious to know what strategy indexes you recommend, and how many you use. Do you use Schlesinger’s “Illustrious 18” or something similar?

Also, are you a single deck kinda guy, or do you target multiple decks? (If you’re from the East Coast, I would think you target multiple decks, but I can’t be certain.) If so, what are you spreading?

Finally, do you have any favorite books on the game?

Jason

Posted: Nov 22, 2005 7:51pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-22 14:07, Dannydoyle wrote:
Let me explain. I personally count cards in Blackjack. You are correct that makes ME an advantage player! not a cheat.

Just one more point of clarification on my part.

Some people differentiate between advantage players and card counters. I don't really see any reason to do this. Most advantage players are exploiting mathematical or physical properties of the games they're targeting. So are card counters. They're exploiting the mathematical properties deck composition at any given moment.

I believe Forte makes this differentiation in his book Casino Game Protection. My take on this is that card counters are a specialized sub-set of the great body of advantage players, but some may disagree with that definition/grouping. It may be a semantic argument at that point though, since everyone seems to agree that neither card counters or advantage players are breaking the law or rules. Just exploiting loopholes and procedures.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Two crew either side for second dealing:

Reasonable. With a crew most things are reasonably feasible at a typical poker game.
By typical poker game I mean a typical casino style private game. The sort that I am familiar with, were it is worth the risk of cheating.
Kitchen table games are not typically worth the risk of cheating.
In an actual casino poker game, I don’t think I would be keen on it, because of the eye.

All cheating in a typical poker game has been perpetrated by a crew in my experience. The lone cheats in the poker games that I refer to above are yet to be experienced by me. I can imagine ways a loner could move, such as marking cards in play but for a loner to hold out and the like is tooooo risky for all but members of the wild bunch. Whose members number many, if one can believe the chronicles.

The only lone cheating, I have known, have been in other sorts of games.

There is some confusion about Advantage play and cheating. In my book an Advantage Player is someone who Cheats to gain an Advantage. I blame the casinos for the confusion as they have classed some fair strategies as cheating. It is the casinos who are wrong. Them who have the money make the rules, so you could say they are right but it’s one of many of their rules I don’t mind breaking if it's safe-ish.

Tommy
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Unknown419
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It's just my opinion, after reading this here thread that Jason is absolutely right in his explanation about the amount of times a cheat will actually do a move in a game.

I would like to elaborate on this statement that the Kid said which is true...

Your assumption that bad cheats are caught, and good ones aren't, is simply false.
Bad cheats get by all the time, good cheats get caught.

Question...Why is it that good cheats get caught?

1. Because we are not perfect each and everytime and when we are not that's when we get caught.

2. Us CHEATS get good only by our trials and errors while learning from past experiences. In other words we learn from our mistakes like everyone else does and with much practice we improve in time just like I'm presently doing.

3. The only reason I come to this here site is to learn from ya'll so that I can minimize my mistakes as much as possible. And I do have to admit that ya'll are some very hard teachers even though most of ya'll most of the time don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Your Friend

Doc
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I am not sure what it’s like in the USA, it’s much a bigger place than England: If I got caught in a typical poker game (the sort that I run , a private casino style poker game) within a day, all the poker players in England would be talking about. You would not be able to live it down here.
I knew this old guy for example who did something petty. He was a professional gambler, he is dead now, just died of old age and nothing sinister. Anyway he got to a final table in a poker competition, before the finale started, on the break, he must have had a rush blood to the head and he stole a few chips from someone else’s stack and put them on his stack and got caught on video. Now within a day, every poker player was talking about it, and to hear some of them talk, you would think he had killed the King. They ribbed him about until he died and they still mention it now and he must be dead 5 years or more.
Frankly it is beyond my understanding how a cheat can be caught and not be made redundant. I can only think that the poker community is far larger than the small world it is here in England.
Thinking about it and to be fair I don’t think many would hear about someone being caught cheating in an home game some place here. So let me put this way: In big money poker, you will become known to all poker players, especially if you are a constant winner, and if your caught cheating all the poker players will know about.

Anyway Merry Christmas Doc it’s great to hear from you.

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
halcon
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DOC good to see you're still around. hope you can hang out more often.

halcon
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Tommy,

I don't understand the difference "private casino type games" that you run and the "home games" you mention. Where do you play these games? Are these organized and advertised games held in public?

There are tons of home games played in America. I would classify them as either the smaller dealers choice games with different antes and also "casino type" games where people buy in and play hold em, for example. If you are playing in someones house for money, in an illegal game I would call that a private game.

Someone could win HUGE sums of money in all sorts of private games and not become "become known to all poker players". That would never happen if a person didn't want it to happen. A person could certainly retain aninomity and take down all sorts of private games for sums of money both large and small. A person could also be busted in a private game and move on to another game and carry on. There are just too many games and too many people playing poker to even make a ripple in the "poker world". Someone who wanted to make a lot of money cheating at cards is not likely to play in the same game over and over again. They find a game, work it for a while, maybe go for a big score and then burn the game. And go find another one.

I understand in the old days it took a lot more work to find games. Nowadays people advertise games in chat rooms for petes sake. They may even invite an complete stranger into their homes for a $500 buy in hold em game.

The guy you mentioned (who copped the chips) was a professional (and apparently,known) gambler. Caught on videotape. People generally don't have videotape running on their home games, so this sounds like a whole different situation to me.

Bottom line, there are people that work ALONE, playing in home games that could takedown the whole game, even be accused of cheating and they will find another game. I'm sure if I played a game here in Milwaukee and decided to cheat and either won so big that they would never play with me again OR was accused of cheating. I wouldn't be afraid to play in a game a month later in Madison. Or Rhinelander, or Oshkosh, or Kenosha or any number of the thousands of towns in this state alone. Word dosen't travel like that in these private games. I'd be surprised if it does even in England.

Also, for all the talk about "moving" and how everyone knows so much about what to watch for, I'ts not even an issue for someone who wants to make some cash in a private game. These games are so cozy that you could do just about anything that is needed with the upmost ease. I have played in MANY games where people set out side tables for people to use for their ashtrays and drinks. Hands leave the table constantly. You wouldn't need any special skills to get all sorts of money. If one were so inclined. Yes, there are many games where things are tighter and rules are more carefully observed. But you don't even have to play in those if you don't want to.

The point is, England may be different. But in the USA the number of games, players and dollars bet is so large that there will always be another game and another group of piegons to play cards with.

Vandy
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Yiannis
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Doc,

long time no see!! The assumption was made by me and I'm with Tommy on this one. Perhaps it has to do with geography and the way private or casino games operate in the two different continents. A professional player's carreer is over if he/she get caught cheating. Even if you get away without any physical damage or legal charges, you won't be able to get into any serious game around. I'm sure you'll be able to find a game here and there, but bad news travel very fast and they tend to stick with you forever.

I remember some time ago, that you've shared with us a story where you got caught dealing seconds. You said you were very lucky because the person was a friend of yours and the game was soft enough to continu (and you continued to deal seconds under his nose Smile). That's the only environment I can think of, where a good cheat gets caught, avoids damage and improves by learning from his mistakes.

It's good to see you back professor Smile Merry Christmas
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Vandy

The game is an illegal club game, in that money is charged per hour per seat. It is in essence, a casino game, with croupiers dealing. Higher stakes than a typical casino cash game here. I know for a fact that such games are all over the USA also. Not so much as in the past you will find small games here in pool halls and homes etc. They have mainly dried up due to the casino comps which cater for all pocket sizes but most are cheap, maybe Ł20 to enter and the players get knocked out and some then play a small cash game after in the casino. This was not so years ago you needed a bank roll to get a game. So any way now most of these smaller games have moved to the casinos, and what is left is penny ante games in houses etc there are exceptions but I give a general picture.
Generally speaking although you find big games in casinos the higher rollers play in games like mine. So where are the cheats going? They don't cheat in casino's unless by collusion it's too risky and if caught cheating there, they can't get back into a casino, anywhere in the world maybe, They don't want to cheat for pennies and cheating in games like mine is maybe even harder because the company is faster. So there are few cheats left and the only cheating that goes on is when a crew get a rich sucker into a private game and sheer him like a sheep.
I don't know how it is USA as I said but such is life here today.

If a stranger shows his face, I would ask the boys who is he, how does he play etc and someone will say “Oh that’s Luton Lenny, he cleaned up last week at Milwaukee Vandy’s game, up north, he plays very loose.” In poker this place is a village, do you understand what I mean.

I don't know what the world is coming to, an honest cheat can't earn a living! Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Quote:
On 2005-11-23 16:51, tommy wrote:
I don't know what the world is coming to, an honest cheat can't earn a living! Smile


I love that quote!

Halcon
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Just a few thoughts I call Casino cheating or any cheating or advantage playing done in a casino as casino corporate cheating.

If it is done in a home poker game I most often call them the home games.

I have only played cards in a home game and I have never played cards in a casino. I have found the info from Jason England posted above very interesting and great posting. Tommy and Vandy also gave some good stuff to. I think that the rules of the game are the same no matter where they are played world wide.

But there are differences in the style of the rooms - how many dealers and other little things that make the casino's different just because of the way the casino corporation sets up the casino and the way they make their company rules.

Nice to see you again DOC - enjoyed your post that is above as I enjoyed everyone's posting in this thread.
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mxray
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On 2005-11-22 14:35, JasonEngland wrote:
"I’ve been interested in blackjack and blackjack counting systems for some years now. "
Jason, I'm not Danny. I've mostly quiet on this thread, but now you've touched on an area where I have wondered something for a while, and I cannot pass up this chance to ask you about it.

I count . Like most, I started with Hi Lo. I later switched to Balanced Zen. Then, when I got heavily into shuffle tracking, I switched back to Hi Lo, because I wanted something more simple, as my brain already had all it could handle at the time with tracking. Tracking has worked well for me. I almost won't sit down at a shoe game that isn't trackable. I think the Bishop should be awarded sainthood!

I have always believed that traditional play-all counting is sort of an "IF..then..else.." kind of thing, with a little bit of math thrown in. Whereas tracking is more about visualization and understanding the inctricacies of shuffles and understanding where cards end up more.

So my question is this: Why don't a lot of magicians and card manipulators shuffle track? Other than yourself, ( I am presuming here) I have never met one. It seems to me that anyone who can do a pass through false shuffle (hope I am calling it by its right name) could very easily understand 1/2 deck grabs, segmenting,the non-randomness of shuffles, etc, and therefore could easily map out a house shuffle, provided it was trackable.

I am certainly no rocket scientist, but tracking has worked for me, and there are many guys on these pages much more adept at card control, controlled shuffles, and understanding in detail how cards fall in shuffle routines more than I will ever be able to..

In your opinionm why don't these guys track? I would think it would almost be child's play for them.
MXRay
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