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tommy
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Happy Christmas Glen.

The answer is no in short but there maybe exceptions which I have not seen.

There are casinos that allow the public to deal and then you will see all sorts but that is not what I am looking for. Most high stakes poker games use pro dealers and that above procedure is what is tolerated and anything outside of it is lets say noticed. It does not mean your cheating if you do not stick to it but you may get comments from the seasond players who play in such games. Most of these guys are not fast company but know the procedure. It is a security procedure shuffle that is worked out to make life hard for the cheat. If it was easy to beat every other dealer in Vegas would be rich. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
T. Joseph O'Malley
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 18:51, KidCrenshaw wrote:
Are you speaking of a simple bottom or top stock retention using box shuffles and running cuts, then presumably dealing yourself the aces?

I would think there is extreme simplicity in that series of motions. In fact, I practice that daily for my base deal.

Maybe I'm missing something...


The cut card & cut.
tjo'
tommy
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The Scramble is not easy to beat that I am aware of. I have heard guys say it's not hard but I think otherwise and I would like to see what it looks like when they do.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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Thanks Tommy.

I was talking to Jimmy Cards Molinari one time about John Scarne. And he mentioned that it was John Scarne that helped the casino's in Las Vegas change the way that they do some of the casino procedure. Like using more than one deck for 21 and other things. Because the casino's were losing lots of money from cheaters and advantage players at the time.

Tommy also helped me with learning about Texas holdem and helped along with Paul H with several holdem ideas for a card shark demo of holdem I worked out. I think it is still in the secret sessions section of the Café.

Thanks again Tommy for all the great ideas you have given this year.

Merry Christmas.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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tommy
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Yes John Scarne was no mug and was very respected by the old gamblers in Engand. I did not know he helped devise the casino procedures. If you show a card trick to some of the old gamblers even today and ask them to cut, they do a Scane cut which can kill a lot of tricks. Thanks Glen.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 20:08, tommy wrote:
The Scramble is not easy to beat that I am aware of. I have heard guys say it's not hard but I think otherwise and I would like to see what it looks like when they do.


There are numerous ways to get around it. I'm surprised, being the poker guy you are, that you're not aware of any?

Scarne cut's easy to beat too.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
rawdawg
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 16:43, tommy wrote:
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?


Are the Aces distributed before the wash or are they already under control?

Back when my hands were good, I was able to riffle cull any four of a kind called for in four shuffles with hardly any hesistation. Sometimes even 2 or 3, if I got lucky. That only lasted like two months.

Anyways, there is at least one poster on this thread who, I believe, could easily accomplish what you've asked for. I don't know if the person wants to be identified, so...

Anyways, I'm off to Fashion Island in Newport Beach for a cash game. We'll see how it goes...
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 20:22, bishthemagish wrote:

I was talking to Jimmy Cards Molinari one time about John Scarne. And he mentioned that it was John Scarne that helped the casino's in Las Vegas change the way that they do some of the casino procedure. Like using more than one deck for 21 and other things. Because the casino's were losing lots of money from cheaters and advantage players at the time.



There's actually no official record of Scarne ever being employed by any casino. Of course, he did do a good deal of consulting work, but that had more to do with the fact that he was friendly with the various "management" at the clubs. Smile

Scarne did a good deal of consulting work in the Batista-era Cuba. In his books he claims to have instituted procedures to foil counters and cheats, such as using multi-deck shoes composed of different-colored backs to overcome the 2-shoe, and not dealing through the entire shoe to stop counters.

I highly doubt Scarne had much influence with regards to Vegas procedures. That seems to be a very back-and-forth subject. In Casino Game Protection, Forte mentions a case where Harrah's decided to go all-shoe games and the players refused to play there; they went across the street to play single deck. The shoes were gone by the following morning.

No question, though, that the emergence of card counters on the scene drastically changed much of the dealing procedures at 21.


Posted: Nov 30, 2005 9:26pm
Quote:
On 2005-11-30 16:43, tommy wrote:
Using a straight deck, can anyone here make a film showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

The procedure:

1. Scramble* the deck and call for antes or blinds

2. Shuffle, box*, shuffle shuffle (or shuffle, shuffle, box, shuffle, depending on the cardroom).

3. Position the cut card a few inches in front of the deck and release the deck. If you’re dealing a stud game, gather the antes before you cut the deck.

4. Cut the cards and pick up the deck. Square the deck both before you pick it up and afterwards in the proper manner.

5. Deal the cards.

* Box is a term meaning a running cut or as I call it a strip cut.
* Scramble means a Wash Shuffle, some call it a Chemi Shuffle.
The above is the casino industry standard. I got it from a dealer site and I think it is accurate for dealing poker in high stakes private games and casino games the world over from what I have seen.

http://www.dicedealer.com/poker_dealer_2.htm

In all the DVDs and books I have I don’t think I have seen it done.

Tommy

That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
bishthemagish
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Thanks for the info Mr. Z.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Paul Chosse
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Hey Z,

Take me along to that game in California, will'ya? I need a laugh, and the money wouldn't hurt...

Best, PSC
"You can't steal a gift..." Dizzy Gillespie
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 21:58, Paul Chosse wrote:
Hey Z,

Take me along to that game in California, will'ya? I need a laugh, and the money wouldn't hurt...

Best, PSC


Preparing the itinerary as we speak. Smile
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 21:26, Mr. Z wrote:
Quote:


That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.


“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned.”


Let me regale you guys with this:
I am not surprised there are no official casino records of Scarne working for casinos considering he was in his forties when Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel was shoot dead. You know, I don’t think there were any legal casinos even when I was kid in England. Most of the casino’s here were opened by villains who had been running illegal dens. Guys like Aspinall spring to mind.
John Aspinall made fortunes running illegal gambling dens before he founded many casinos, including the Clermont Club. 1962. Original members included five dukes, five marquesses, 20 earls and 'Lucky' Lord Lucan. A Reckless, eccentric and elitist, he was also an animal lover who established his own zoos. Controversially, five of his keepers have been killed by tigers and elephants according to reports. That must have been about the time that gambling became legal in England. “I think” before that the only place you could bet legally was at a race track. I have no idea what the score was in the USA.
The procedures in effect came from the players not the casino’s. If the players don’t like the procedure they will not play. Scanes books I think had some influence on the players and how to deal here at least but I am only guessing. There were not many books that I recall other than Scarne that gave any guidance on it over here.


Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2005-12-01 00:18, tommy wrote:
Quote:
On 2005-11-30 21:26, Mr. Z wrote:
Quote:


That's like "day one" stuff man...

Weed the wash, short shuffles and a brief are what the doctor ordered.


“Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned.”


Let me regale you guys with this:
I am not surprised there are no official casino records of Scarne working for casinos considering he was in his forties when Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel was shoot dead. You know, I don’t think there were any legal casinos even when I was kid in England. Most of the casino’s here were opened by villains who had been running illegal dens. Guys like Aspinall spring to mind.
John Aspinall made fortunes running illegal gambling dens before he founded many casinos, including the Clermont Club. 1962. Original members included five dukes, five marquesses, 20 earls and 'Lucky' Lord Lucan. A Reckless, eccentric and elitist, he was also an animal lover who established his own zoos. Controversially, five of his keepers have been killed by tigers and elephants according to reports. That must have been about the time that gambling became legal in England. “I think” before that the only place you could bet legally was at a race track. I have no idea what the score was in the USA.
The procedures in effect came from the players not the casino’s. If the players don’t like the procedure they will not play. Scanes books I think had some influence on the players and how to deal here at least but I am only guessing. There were not many books that I recall other than Scarne that gave any guidance on it over here.


Tommy


I think you meant to quote my other post...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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Quote:
On 2005-11-30 19:31, tommy wrote:
Can you do it and show us sticking strictly to the above casino procedure?


I still think I'm missing something.

You seem to find this difficult, but being a card man that it seems you are, I can't where your difficulty lies.

I think I'm missing something...

But then again, Mr. Z make sme feel as if I am not.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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Using a straight deck, can anyone here "make a film" showing us them doing a strict casino shuffle and cut, keeping the four aces on top, or keeping the four aces on the bottom?

Many guys have told me they can do it but saying it and "showing" that they can are often two different things. If you can do it then show us. Then I will give you an honest opinion of if it will pass in my game. If you don't want to give a demo that is no problem.

Tommy
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Tommy
KidCrenshaw
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Forgive my ignorance as I am quite new...

By "scramble", I assume you mean to spread the deck face-down atop the table, as casinos do on the first hand, collect the cards and then gather them in preperation for a shuffle, no?

By shuffle, I am assuming you mean a tabled riffle shuffle (no real misunderstanding there), and your "box" is, I assume, what I have known as a running cut, I think I am correct thus far, no?

Make a cut onto the cut card, carry the cut, and begin dealing. At this point, with no "funny" moves, have the aces on the top or bottom?

Assuming the cut card stays on the bottom of the deck, don't know why it wouldn't, you're right, I couldn't do it.

Because I can't do a Greek deal... yet.

All of the rest could be simply accomplished though - I fail to see the difficulty, again, am I missing something?

I could certainly make a video, but I am by no means saying my chops are anywhere near suitable for the card table - so I'm not sure of what it would accomplish watching my methodically slow-steady hands working the deck. I also only have a webcam and no real table to do this on. Only a keyboard glide that's only slightly wider than my close-up mat.

I know, excuses, excuses.

I'm not bothered honestly. I feel no need to prove to you something as siomple as tracking some face down cards, bottom stock control, running to a break and cutting to a crimp. Quite elementary as was stated by Mr. Z.

You mean to tell me that the card men you know aren't capable of this?

Makes me question your cardmen, which I know I certainly should not as I am sure their experience in the field probably extends beyond by living days.

Again, I feel as if I am missing something.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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Right first I do not ask you to false deal just have the Aces on top or botton of the deck after you complete the shuffle.

Maybe you do not understand what a scramble is I am not sure: It is let us say for this purpose taking a new order deck, spreading the deck face up to show the players all the cards are there. So you know where the Aces are to start with. Now the the scramble is turning deck face down and making what looks like a big mess of them on the table wahing them around in circles with both hands. That is about the best I can explain a scramble. Anyone who has played poker in a casino will understand what I mean. Then you push them together face down but they are not easy to square up at this point, so what your supposed to do is pick up the cut card card put it on the bottom tilt the deck on it's side faces toward you and square up that way sort of. (It is easier to do than explain correctly)

Now you have em squared and face down on the table, remove the cut card and do two riffle shuffles, now do a fair runnuing cut as explained by Erdnase. Now one more riffle and square up. Release the deck. Cut using one hand only onto the cut card. Compleat the cut and square up.

That is about as best I can say it. Now if after that you have all the Aces at the bottom of deck or all at the top and it looks cool you should go and get yourself a job in casino or you can work at my place or a place like mine and earn money cheating doing just that.

Hope I explained it OK.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
rawdawg
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KidCrenshaw,

I think "scramble" means "washing" the cards or spreading the cards around the table in a haphazard, circular like motion. Boxing is "stripping" the deck or running cuts, as you've said.

I think Tommy isn't so disbelieving of someone executing the sleights so much as executing them in a fair and natural manner so as to not arouse suspicion, let alone, detect the action.

Anyways, the game I mentioned earlier took place in Newport Beach across the street from Fashion Island. It's a fairly affluent area filled with Beemer's, Benz's and Republicans. The Clubhouse was located in a housing complex that had it's own Hair Salon, Market place, Sports Center, etc...

It turned out to be a small stakes game with no real money on the table. Just a bunch of guys bemoaning, stocks, Indexes and USC. I knew only one person at this game and he only knew one person. Anyways, I ended up dealing the game as usual. It seems that every game I'm in, everybody hates to deal. It's like some kind of chore to them. I once, accidently, closed out a hand that still had one player left to act. The player held pocket 6's and had flopped a set. The player left in the hand held top pair and was clearly ready to give action. Even with that gaff, the guy with the set defended my blunder by saying I was doing everybody a favor by dealing. I offered to pay him the bet he was going to make($20) but he waved it off. I was perfect the rest of the night, though.

It just seems to me with the explosion of Poker thanks to ESPN, there are so many really loose and lax games in Southern California right now. It isn't even necessary to take any advantages as the games are filled with bad players emulating final table action. Granted, I've mostly only played in games with money on the table in the hundreds or low thousands so I wouldn't know how much heat is involved in the big games. I have sat and watched a 200/400 NLHE game with splashed pots, wild bets, cards lifted off the table and peeked at in the lap, decks taken off the table and dipped under the edge to complete cuts, etc.... Things that would probably give Tommy a heart attack. But most of these players were Entertainment/Fashion Industry types that had big money and no clue.

Anyways, my point is or at least what I'm trying to say is that I'm thinking of putting together a "location" crew to take down the Capitalist swine.

Power to the Proletariat, comrades!
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
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"Boxing" the deck can mean both a single cut and a running cut (stripping the deck).

I prefer to use "boxing" the deck to mean a single cut and "stripping the deck" when referring to a running cut to avoid confusion, but this usage isn't universal.

Jason
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tommy
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I have never heard box before to tell the truth but that comes from a pro casino site in the USA. What they do in a casino in poker is strip the deck as far as I am concerned. Magicians call it a running cut.

Any way what about it Jason, are you going to give us a demo for Christmas if it's easy. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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